Forms and Point sparring are NOT in any way conducive to becoming a better fighter.
Something I tend to agree with and is discussed within the books content (of which this thread is about). In fact, I dont really think forms really have anything to do with fighting! But that is off topic for this thread and another discussion altogethor.


And becoming a better fighter is what MARTIAL arts is all about.
To some perhaps, not to everyone though. Some train to avoid fighting, some for self defence, some for fitness, some for tournaments and others still simply for no less than they enjoy it! Personally I dont feel that patterns/kata are fighting as we percieve it, though for those who want to see how kata can influence and be utilized in sparing, Iain Abernethys stuff is worth looking at.


Unfortunately the training methods in even the best TKD schools seems to be crap compared to your average kickboxing gym.
Well I cant really agree as Ive seen both good and bad KB schools (same with TKD schools). Many so called KB gyms these days cater for those wishing simply to get fit and feel tough doing it (ie. no contact and no one fights in the ring), that said I also know of some great kick boxing instructors, same with the techniques Ive seen in the ring. some are fantastic, others look awful!



Stuart

Yeah Park JT gets the credit for a large percentage of the tuls which is funny considering people look at Choi's background and assume that he's the motivating factor behind the Karate similarities. FYI Park was one of the few people early on in TKD who stressed cross training and the similarities, if any, can be ascribed back to him not Choi. (I'll save the rest of my argument on this subject as I could easily go on for a while......)

Let's not forget Nam Taehi.



- Der's Big Book of TKD? Isn't that the one I got my Black Belt with? By the by, wearing lipstick and kissing the page doesn't count as an autographed copy ;)

Der's Book on How to Un-Suck Your Kukki Taekwondo.

That's ridiculous. No you don't. I haven't in 3 years.

I think we may have crossed wires here! Its fine if you dont wish to grade anymore and your happy where you are, but to grade, very few (if any) get the perogative not to have to do forms! So for some of your grades did you not have to do patterns or is that incorrect?

Stuart

You have t3h c0rr3ct.

I am not WTF, but we did learn the Tae gyuk forms. We are an offshoot fo ATF.

I had to learn the meanings of each form. Kind of cool, but gay in a way.

Chon-ji....Literally means heaven and earth....etc etc etc.

Chonji isn't a Taegeuk form.

That's ridiculous. No you don't. I haven't in 3 years.

Absolutely agree.

Patterns have there place I believe but, and I do appreciate the work Stuart has put into his book, I really don't see them as I once did in terms of being essential. Yes they are done at gradings, yes they are required to get to the next level, but why. Simply "because that's how it's done" is not really a great answer.

One theory I have is that patterns were created to document and transmit techniques during the spread of TKD. During the early years there was no interweb, there was no teleconferencing or any of the wonderful things we have in todays information age. Was difficult to obtain and send out information so the solution was to create the patterns, teach them and use them as a living document to teach TKD. I have no real backing on this, but again it's just a theory.

For today I see patterns as a tool for teaching basic stuff. I generally don't try to extrapolate techniques out of patterns, but if I'm working on other things such as the stagnant one step and notice something that could be related to a pattern, then neato . . . and then I move on. I'd much rather be working on other aspects or be at the gym working on conditioning.

Meh what do I know, I really don't need to practice patterns anymore anyways as I don't really have any ambitions on testing again.

I've been to TKD schools all over the east coast, from Maryland down to Florida and have never, ever, ever seen a throw taught in class at any level. That includes ITF, ATA, WTF, and ITC schools. If the thing is NEVER taught, then it essentially doesn't exist.

Kintanon

Which school in MD?

Cuz if you'd come to mine, you would have learned throws.

Let's not forget Nam Taehi.




Der's Book on How to Un-Suck Your Kukki Taekwondo.

Seriously . . . you write it, I'll buy it. The Kukki textbook is so out of date its ridiculous . . . and I think you should title with the above.

Thanks and I appreciate that. I actually have chatted with DerAus a number of times (nice guy and knowledgable with it - hi btw).

Good to see you Stuart. Note, my comments on reverse engineering above were more geared toward those looking at the WTF poomse. Most of the "applications" I have seen are pretty aweful, and truthfully, I think they move Kukki Taekwondo in a direction it wasn't meant to go.

I'm not sure why you seem to think I was hoping you were. It seems like you claim some knowledge when it comes to being around some of the original guys, and I appreciate any input from someone with such access. I'm not looking for a Choi nuthugger, nor am I looking for someone who has a kneejerk "Choi is a LIAR!!!11!!" response. My intent in reading the memoirs was to try and filter the hype from the truth and get a more realistic view of TKD history in general, and Choi's role in it specifically.
And over all the pages, how much did you find was truth and how much the other and moreso, howmuch was unverifyable (after all, as you pointed out it was written and release by the ITF themselves). It wasnt a discussion as such and you were simply looking for people to back up Gen Choi's claims (which they cant really as they wernt there) which you dismissed, but unfortunatly I dont know either way for the most part, so would be of little use! Like I said, I agree with some of the stuff you said as a personal opinion, but its still only my thoughts and opinion.



Stuart, I don't think you got Mav's point here (if I may, Mav...).
Yes I did I feel!


You're saying that since you have to do forms anyway, why not try and turn them into something usefull.
Yes.. but obviousy if you dislike any forms training, it will be a disagreeable statement anyway!


The reason that seems backwards to us here is because we believe you should have training drills/methodologies because they are usefull.
So making something useful doesnt count as useful then!!!


Instead of asking, what training is usefull, and then doing it you are doing something and then asking how we can make this usefull.
Well yes and no. I feel they were useful anyway, just in a limited capacity and definatly not for the reasons they were inteded for - same as Shotyokan kata and many other arts forms!


Now I admit, changing your way of thinking on that would require a radical step: Get rid of patterns. It's particularly extreme for someone like you because that would mean, essentially, withdrawing from the official ITF (if there even is such a thing anymore),
Im not in the ITF and havnt been since 1999, so your of track there! The only radical step it would require is for me to feel that patterns are useless and then yes, I would get rid of them! But since Im not convince of that - here they stay!


since you could not test with them anymore and they most likely would not recognize the ranks you handed out because they require patterns.
See above!


It was easy for me, because I don't have a school and rank doesn't matter to me anymore. So, even though I consider that I still practice TKD (because for better or worse that is what I learned), I simply stopped doing patterns (and also started doing contact/kickboxing style sparring, more heavybag work, etc.).
And we do patterns + contact sparring, bag work, pad work and a whole host of other stuff!!


So, even though I respect the fact that you are trying to make patterns less useless for training, it is still coming at the situation backwards by trying to instill usefullness in something rather than just doing what is usefull in the first place.
Its like a car, they arnt enviromentally friendly, so do you say "okay I'll walk 500 miles" or do you say "thats great, they've invented an enviromentally friendly fuel" but still dont drive as they worked backwards!

BUT Actually, if we go back to the Matsumura era, the usefulness was already in them , so Im simply bring something back to where it was in the first place!


Make sense?
Yes, your point of view does.

Stuart

Which school in MD?

Cuz if you'd come to mine, you would have learned throws.

Well thats 3 on one thread already!!! So not as uncommon as some would like to have you believe!


Good to see you Stuart. Note, my comments on reverse engineering above were more geared toward those looking at the WTF poomse. Most of the "applications" I have seen are pretty aweful, and truthfully, I think they move Kukki Taekwondo in a direction it wasn't meant to go.

I think we had this discussion before and I agree that the WTF forms are a complete different thing to the Ch'ang Hon ones, which had applications to begin with - so Im not actually reverse engineering (as I said in the last post) simply trying to find what was there originally, via research and other methods!

Always nice to see familar faces in strange places!


Stuart

Patterns have there place I believe but, and I do appreciate the work Stuart has put into his book
Thanks


I really don't see them as I once did in terms of being essential. Yes they are done at gradings, yes they are required to get to the next level, but why. Simply "because that's how it's done" is not really a great answer.
As i said, I guess in this modern era they are not essential, but as I (and you) said, the majority of students have no choice but to do them, so lets add some weight to 'why' we do them (as they use to have many moons back) and NOT do them 'simply the way its always been done' by the majority (as far as TKD is concerned)


One theory I have is that patterns were created to document and transmit techniques during the spread of TKD. During the early years there was no interweb, there was no teleconferencing or any of the wonderful things we have in todays information age. Was difficult to obtain and send out information so the solution was to create the patterns, teach them and use them as a living document to teach TKD. I have no real backing on this, but again it's just a theory.
A theory many feel is relevant and often quoted and one I dont disagree with also. Your points about the internet etc I have touched on in the book also.


For today I see patterns as a tool for teaching basic stuff. I generally don't try to extrapolate techniques out of patterns, but if I'm working on other things such as the stagnant one step and notice something that could be related to a pattern, then neato . . . and then I move on. I'd much rather be working on other aspects or be at the gym working on conditioning.
Each to his own and Ive no problems with anyone that doesnt like patterns, or feels they are irrelvant etc etc. The book it for those who perhaps want a little more out of them than they have currently got by taking them back to what kata/patterns/forms were once intended for!


Stuart

Thanks


As i said, I guess in this modern era they are not essential, but as I (and you) said, the majority of students have no choice but to do them, so lets add some weight to 'why' we do them (as they use to have many moons back) and NOT do them 'simply the way its always been done' by the majority (as far as TKD is concerned)
Then this puts the responsibility on the instructors to do this. I really don't see the lead organizations doing this. The question is how to make them relevant in a particular school. You have made them relevant in your school . . . in my school they probably won't be, but you and I probably have different goals in mind for our schools.



A theory many feel is relevant and often quoted and one I dont disagree with also. Your points about the internet etc I have touched on in the book also.
Cool, this is actually a theory that more evolved from my world literature studies. Most cultures passed down stories/religion/teachings through oral transmission (please someone make a joke) prior to any written text being aroud. It's logical to believe that patterns are similar in the regard.



Each to his own and Ive no problems with anyone that doesnt like patterns, or feels they are irrelvant etc etc. The book it for those who perhaps want a little more out of them than they have currently got!


Stuart
I've actually gotten a great deal out of my patterns. I enjoy doing them, but I don't dwell on them, of course I'm of the kukki variety of TKD so I'm more in agreement with Der . . . again . . . DAMN YOU DER! . . . and have very little knowledge of your pattern set.

Then this puts the responsibility on the instructors to do this. I really don't see the lead organizations doing this.
Yes it is the instructors responsibility/choice to do this.. but in the book I also challenge the big associations to do it also!


The question is how to make them relevant in a particular school. You have made them relevant in your school . . . in my school they probably won't be, but you and I probably have different goals in mind for our schools.
They can be as relevant or as irrelevant as you want I guess! Before funakoshi, they were highly relevant.. this got lost unfortunatly, but me, Id rather have a little more substance to my patterns than simply going through the motions, but each to their own of course



Cool, this is actually a theory that more evolved from my world literature studies. Most cultures passed down stories/religion/teachings through oral transmission (please someone make a joke) prior to any written text being aroud. It's logical to believe that patterns are similar in the regard.
Patterns (out of the context of actual TKD patterns) are often used for remembering things. I think some said a few pages back there were 99 techniques (or something) in the first 7 patterns - try remember 99 techniques, hell I cant even remember 99 things full stop! Pattrens help in this regard, even if you dont utilize all the techniques or applications.



I've actually gotten a great deal out of my patterns. I enjoy doing them, but I don't dwell on them, of course I'm of the kukki variety of TKD so I'm more in agreement with Der . . . again . . . DAMN YOU DER! . . . and have very little knowledge of your pattern set.
Well the WTF forms were made a different way to the Ch'ang Hon ones - one evolved (in a way) the other were made to be the opposite of the the Ch'ang Hon ones as their main priorty AFAIK. Still, I think if your a WTF'er and someone shows some good applications that could be useful.. why dismiss them, rather than simply try them and see if you like them or they are useful and then incorporate them into training routines!


Stuart

I've actually gotten a great deal out of my patterns. I enjoy doing them, but I don't dwell on them, of course I'm of the kukki variety of TKD so I'm more in agreement with Der . . . again . . . DAMN YOU DER! . . . and have very little knowledge of your pattern set.

My sincere apologies.

Does this mean I can put you down for a pre-order?

We do grapplng in my own school and have done for years, its not all grappling and I wouldnt go toe to toe on the mats with a BJJ black belt, but it serves its purpose as far as training students go (ie. what to do when they go to the ground).
So you are teaching crappling? That is defined as teaching ground work, but you yourself do not have an instructors belt in a grappling style.

It would be best to set this record straight near the begining, as you are about to rack up about 400 posts about how Koreans invented grappling and you were the genius who realized this after watching the UFC.

I dont really want to wade through 6 pages for this, its from your first post, so its fair game.

Have you ever been ranked in Jiu-Jitsu/Judo/Sambo? Any style will do for me here.

As i said, I guess in this modern era they are not essential, but as I (and you) said, the majority of students have no choice but to do them, so lets add some weight to 'why' we do them (as they use to have many moons back) and NOT do them 'simply the way its always been done' by the majority (as far as TKD is concerned)

The only weight I can see is pure "tradition" and rank achievement. Nothing wrong with that, but I doubt anything truely useful besides that, but good luck with it.



Each to his own and Ive no problems with anyone that doesnt like patterns, or feels they are irrelvant etc etc. The book it for those who perhaps want a little more out of them than they have currently got by taking them back to what kata/patterns/forms were once intended for!



I'm sorry, but I haven't had the pleasure of reading your book so if the following question(s) is/are answered there, please excuse me. I haven't heard anyone in this thread say beyond a guess what exactly were these kata/patterns/forms once intended for...[edit] but you seem like you agree with that supposition.

Can you answer that a little more solidly?

If they were a way to transmit techniques because of communication issues over time/distance in the ancient world, wouldn't it stand to reason that technological progress would supercede the necessity for them in the modern era?

And even if we take that out of the equation; as has already been said, the experience has shown the kata/patterns/forms don't contribute very much, if anything, technique-wise to effective fighting ability.

I understand what you wish to accomplish, but beyond a simple study of historical aspects and keeping tradition alive; what if you can't get anything out of them that's more useful than achieving rank?

I haven't heard anyone here including yourself say that you definitely have done that. Could you delve more into that? I'd like to know how your research and writing of this book have achieved an improvement. And I'm not talking about "feel good" stuff or esoteric "enlightenment" crap. I'm talking about improvement in your martial arts prowess.


"Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!"
–Krishnamurti