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Askari
1/05/2007 5:40pm,
So I was wondering through the downtown Chapters and by habit wandered into the Martial Arts section. And happened upon this book for the first time ever:
http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/4770021984.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_V51599967_.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Sword-Fighting-Secrets-Samurai/dp/4770021984/sr=8-2/qid=1168035700/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/102-1123789-5126562?ie=UTF8&s=books)
So I picked it up and began to flip through. Now this is a beautifull book. Some of the best layouts in a martial arts book I have ever seen. Beautifull pictures, especially the ones in full Samurai armour. The pictorial instructions are very straightforward and I would say that most techniques in the book could be replicated by someone who really wanted to.

Standing there flipping through this book really made me wistfully aware of how easy it would be to believe that the contents of the book are real Budo. The sad thing is that whomever wrote it for Hatsumi [Bruce Appleby and Doug Wilson...ed] did a very good job, conducted a phenomenal amount of research and are, in a lot of instances accurate. After all, the most effective lies are the ones that donít get told.

And I have seen many of these techniques and descriptions in Iaido classes and in Draeger's books.

Now I have a few of Draegers books, which are amazing, but this one is so nice I almost bought it as well - even being an ardent Bullshidoka chaser. But I was finally stopped by the self-evident confused of a "Ninja Grandmaster" writing a book about Samurai techniques.

For those that have trained this, what were the sword training methods like? Is there anyone on the board that has trained Bujinkan and Iaido or Kendo that can make some comparisons?

shinbushi
1/05/2007 6:29pm,
So I was wondering through the downtown Chapters and by habit wandered into the Martial Arts section. And happened upon this book for the first time ever:
http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/4770021984.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_V51599967_.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Sword-Fighting-Secrets-Samurai/dp/4770021984/sr=8-2/qid=1168035700/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/102-1123789-5126562?ie=UTF8&s=books)
So I picked it up and began to flip through. Now this is a beautifull book. Some of the best layouts in a martial arts book I have ever seen. Beautifull pictures, especially the ones in full Samurai armour. The pictorial instructions are very straightforward and I would say that most techniques in the book could be replicated by someone who really wanted to.

Standing there flipping through this book really made me wistfully aware of how easy it would be to believe that the contents of the book are real Budo. The sad thing is that whomever wrote it for Hatsumi [Bruce Appleby and Doug Wilson...ed] did a very good job, conducted a phenomenal amount of research and are, in a lot of instances accurate. After all, the most effective lies are the ones that donít get told.

And I have seen many of these techniques and descriptions in Iaido classes and in Draeger's books.

Now I have a few of Draegers books, which are amazing, but this one is so nice I almost bought it as well - even being an ardent Bullshidoka chaser. But I was finally stopped by the self-evident confused of a "Ninja Grandmaster" writing a book about Samurai techniques.

For those that have trained this, what were the sword training methods like? Is there anyone on the board that has trained Bujinkan and Iaido or Kendo that can make some comparisons?
Thing is the bulk of th Bujinkan weapons training comes from Kukishinden Ryu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kukishinden_Ryu) which is a samurai art. So no it is not a ninja master playing samurai it is a bujutsu Soke showing his art.

Askari
1/05/2007 6:35pm,
Thing is the bulk of th Bujinkan weapons training comes from Kukishinden Ryu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kukishinden_Ryu) which is a samurai art. So no it is not a ninja master playing samurai it is a bujutsu Soke showing his art.Have you cross trained this with Koryu arts? How does it compare?

Crushing Step
1/05/2007 10:55pm,
Thing is the bulk of th Bujinkan weapons training comes from Kukishinden Ryu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kukishinden_Ryu) which is a samurai art. So no it is not a ninja master playing samurai it is a bujutsu Soke showing his art.

My thoughts exactly. Weather or not I believe one man can soke quite so many arts, giving the benefit of the doubt that his pedigree is legit I would say that there is nothing wrong with him putting out a samurai book.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaaki_Hatsumi

Now if the guy is a legit samurai, (um, is that any less silly than saying he's a legit nin-rod?) and the fact that it was a beautiful and well researched book, I'd say calling him out like that is a bit out o line.

I'll also add that accomplished English speaking writers doing the editing is very legit.

I did know one guy who was an early RBWI student, who trained in sword arts there, and he spoke very highly of that training. He didn't name the style, so I can't say how close to the core Bussey remained.

hl1978
1/05/2007 11:11pm,
I've got about 8 years muso jikiden eishin ryu expereince and saw this book at the local bookstore. I will check it out and compare it with my own knowledge.

Askari
1/05/2007 11:24pm,
Thanks hl1978,

I only had the opportunity to train Iaido for about 2 and a bit years, just enough to scratch the surface. I tend to buy all of the sword books I can get my hands on but before shelling out the 35 bucks, I want to think this one through a bit given the bad rap Hatsumi usually gets with regards to being the only source for his own claims etc.

Hanniballistic
1/05/2007 11:41pm,
I did know one guy who was an early RBWI student, who trained in sword arts there, and he spoke very highly of that training. He didn't name the style, so I can't say how close to the core Bussey remained.

And this didn't set alarm bells ringing?

Askari
1/06/2007 9:24am,
My thoughts exactly. Weather or not I believe one man can soke quite so many arts, giving the benefit of the doubt that his pedigree is legit I would say that there is nothing wrong with him putting out a samurai book.We dont do that around here. Actual real verifiable proof of rank and lineage is required on the Bullshido site.

We do not give the benifit of the doubt.

In this case, if the information in the book is close to legit Koryu, I want it for research purposes. But if it is complete hogwash, I want to stay away from it.

shinbushi
1/06/2007 3:31pm,
There is no question of Masaaki Hasumi Sensei's rank and linage to Kukishiden Ryu, Happo Biken. Where people have a problem is the ninpo arts that cannot be proven past his teacher Takamatsu Sensei. Heck www.koryu.com even acknowledges his book on stick fighting as very good. http://www.koryu.com/library/mskoss5.html . 2/3's down the page or so.

Plasma
1/06/2007 3:39pm,
Takamatsu primary ranking was a Shihan for Kukishin Ryu. Hatsumi's lineage for teaching Kukishinden Ryu comes from that. It was well documentated and proven.

Hatsumi's Stick fighting book is Kukishin Ryu as well.

Askari
1/06/2007 4:37pm,
I have his stick fighting book.

I've also received a PM from a poster who likes this book and recommends it. So I am going to pick it up and read it. I'll do a review when I am done.

Crushing Step
1/06/2007 8:14pm,
We dont do that around here. Actual real verifiable proof of rank and lineage is required on the Bullshido site.

We do not give the benifit of the doubt.

The original post was not about wether or not his samurai soke grand mastership was authentic at all. Your original assertion was that the book was shite because a ninja wrote a samurai book.


But I was finally stopped by the self-evident confused of a "Ninja Grandmaster" writing a book about Samurai techniques.

So critical of his other 68 black belts or not, your original post even inplied it was a well researched lie because Hatsumi was only a ninja. Now you know that he claims to be a ninja, samurai, and gosh know what else, then feel free to discuss those claims.

Crushing Step
1/06/2007 8:18pm,
And this didn't set alarm bells ringing?

You don't even know... This was one of the first, but definitely not the last, ninjas I've met in my life. A few years ago I had a few email exchanges withg Bussey and mentioned this guy's name. His response was that he had trained so many instructors over the years, that his name didn't ring a bell.

What makes this so remarkable, is the nin-rod that I knew in the navy claimed to have been given an authentic 700 year old katana direct from Bussey, and that he was one of only two to receive such an honor. So for Bussey to not know his name, either means the nin-rod was lying or he otherwise got ex-communicated and disowned. Then of course ninjas wouldn't do that, I guess they would just kill you off, especially if you're packing a one of a kind 700 year old katana.

Askari
1/06/2007 8:21pm,
Mantis Fist, Aka Ninja poster boy.

Re-read my entire first post, there is one sentence about the ninja super soker creating a samurai book.

Now if that is what you want the thread to be about, we can do that. The book also claims that the author is a Dr, shall we go into that as well? Or would you rather use the search function?

And yes the book looks like a very well researched piece on Samurai work. Now, if his entire claim is full of crap, then this to is full of crap and being used as a smokescrean. However, if as Shinbushi has posted, there is a piece of legitimacy within the story there might be some worthwhile reading to this piece.

I for one would like to know if it is worth the money I am planning to shell out for it.

Edited to add, cause I dont want to wait for you to search it Hatsumi's Doctorate:
Among them are Honorary Doctorate degrees from the USA in Human Sciences and Philosophy
http://www.ninjutsu.com/soke-hatsumi.shtml

Crushing Step
1/06/2007 11:33pm,
Ninja poster boy...

I'm trying to resolve a misunderstanding without flaming you, but there's no need to swear. Them's fightin words!

Fitz
1/07/2007 3:56am,
Edited to add, cause I dont want to wait for you to search it Hatsumi's Doctorate:
http://www.ninjutsu.com/soke-hatsumi.shtml

That isn't what the "Dr." title he uses comes from.

Hatsumi trained, gained accredation and practices as a traditional Japanese Osteopath for decades. This was his primary profession for a good portion of his life and somthing he continued to practice after the Ninja craze happened in the 80s.

Japanese Osteopathic medicine and the credentials for it do not exactly meet the same standard as a "Doctor of Osteopathy" (DO) does in the US meaning he probably couldn't practice in the States without some additional certification however by the Japanese system he is fully entitled to that "Dr."

Additionally while there is a certain amount of doubt about aspects of the arts Hatsumi learned from his teacher Takamatsu there is no doubt regarding either Hatsumi's or Takamastu's lineage to the Kukishinden arts. You can find out a good deal more about the Kukishinden and the various lineages, etc. related to it at

http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/main_e.html

The whole "Ninja v. Samurai" thing is comic book nonsense. Japanese martial history is more compicated and less rigidly divided than that. If you feel like diving in a bit into the historical material on Ninjutsu and the problems associated with it Roy Ron of the Genbukan has some good material up at

http://www.ninpo.org/

The "Ninpo History" and "Historical Records" sections are probably the best parts of the site.