there are just too many questions with tanemura... and i would still, even if his scrolls are authentic...i have to question how much he was really taught...
atleast with hatsumi he is for real. there is no question was was actually trained by takamatsu. and as far as koryu budo and ninpo is concerned there are no questions when it comes to wether or not he is legit. which would make him the leading authority in ninpo and budo.
granted some of the ryu we train in there are other legitimate grandmasters that still practice today. but how many of them where in combat? when was the last time it was actually used?
and all they do is practice the technique/form and that's it.
bujinkan is the closest link to ancient japanese combat and takamatsu actually used and tested the scrolls...our style has not been watered down thru a bunch of grandmasters with no combat expeirience.
i feel the truth is people who bad mouth hatsumi/bujinkan only do it because they do not understand real budo / ninpo.

hatsumi does not just teach technique...he trully lives the "ninja lifestyle" and applies it to life and training.
what happens when a technique fails? doesnt work?
we focus on the ability to adapt. to change, the true meaning of henka.
and we do not limit ourselves to one style or one way, hatsumi teaches all 9 ryu together this is bujinkan, not each school sepeartely. he applies ninpo to what we do regaldless of which school the technique came from.

people mis-understand bujinkan. example..on this forum on the overview of bujinkan it says its a flaw that we use Kamae...kamae is not a posture, and kamae are used in the basics... it is to develope the body to move correctly...it does not mean when you fight you start out in kamae and then move...your movement into the kamae creates the distance and timing..when you get good the kamae disappears into a natural movement.
there the form disappears...this is ninjutsu..the technique becomes unseen by the enemy.
in the same styles we study that others do..you can see their form and way of moving..this is bad because people can see it and learn your way..in bujinkan you cant ...this is the true spirit of budo and ninpo the true art of the samurai.

budo and ninpo are the same. in order to understand ninpo, you must understand budo. it is the mindset, this way of looking at things, adapting, changing, surviving...from this ninpo was created in japan....of course the best way to explain it is ninpo has to do with sneaking around...spying...etc... but the feeling and mentality goes beyond words, beyond the comprehnsion of one's mind...into a world of things that cannot be understood, and the secret is being aware, having knowledge of these things that you cannot understand.

and the way hatsumi teaches, gives you infinite possibilites, unlike other instructors.
it's all in what you can see based on your perseption.
hatsumi does not teach, you have to 'steal' the techniques from him...but it's all in how you look at whats goping on. and one of his whole porposes for doing things the way he does is just that, so people who try to mock him, cannot understand what he is teaching, and whats really happening. and an enemy having that mindset has already defeated himself.

there are just too many questions with tanemura... and i would still, even if his scrolls are authentic...i have to question how much he was really taught...
atleast with hatsumi he is for real. there is no question was was actually trained by takamatsu.


Takamatsu certainly did award Hatsumi with several sokeships, but I don't actually think he was the longest training or the most frequently training student. Takamatsu had other students who had trained for longer than Hatsumi.

Does anyone know exactly how often and how long Hatsumi would train with Takamatsu? Was it every weekend for 15 years? Or once a month? And was it all weekend?

Not that this takes away from Hatsumi's legitimate inheritance from Takamatsu. Many koryu schools have a habit of choosing a successor who is not the most senior or the longest training or even the most skilled.




and as far as koryu budo and ninpo is concerned there are no questions when it comes to wether or not he is legit. which would make him the leading authority in ninpo and budo..

There are plenty of questions that are unresolved about the ninpo claims and lineages.

And he is not the leading authority in budo. There is no such thing. And even if there were such a thing, there are many, many budo experts and masters in Japan.

and even if i was wrong, there is no other martial artists or lineage leading to any teachers alive who claim to be a grandmaster of anything who studied with takamatsu longer or even close to Hatsumi, or new/ had a personal relationship any where close to hatsumi and takamatsu.

First, just accept that you were wrong. It happens all the time and it is how people learn. There is no shame in it.

Kimura did in fact study longer and more regularly with Takamatsu and had the benefit of living in the same area. Takamatsu had several older generation students who also had more face to face time with him then Hatsumi had. Why your belief that no one else trained with Takamatsu is so signficant toy our faith in Hatsumi I have no idea but it is simply incorrect.

Hatsumi's inheritance of the particular schools he was granted by Takamatsu are a seperate issue from who studied with Takamatsu and who Takamatsu granted other school lineages.

I cannot for a moment fathom why you think that the only way Hatsumi can be seen as legitimate is if Takamatsu never taught, granted Menkyo or passed along Sokeships to anyone else. It's not like Japanese martial arts are akin to the "Highlander." There actually can be more then one.


hatsumi has the letters and post marks to prove it, he has pictures, boxes and boxes of pictures and film and a lot of it. to include verified sokeships, and takamtsu's scrolls written by his teachers.

Yes, for the specific school he was granted by Takamatsu. This isn't in dispute.

alright i am trying to be quick with my words.....

there is no one else teaching...today....in our generation that has had training with takamatsu that is teaching...

i dont care if takamatsu taught somebody something and they are dead... there is no lineage from takamatsu to someone, to somebody alive today teaching. who is legit. (and actually trained under takamatsu, with him....not somebody who was sent techniques by mail from takamatsu.

takamatsu sent techniques by mail to other martial artists to try out...that is it.

and i am not wrong. all other people who ever trained with takamatsu in the past are dead.
and yes the guy who wrote the bojutsu book may have received menkyo kaiden in whatever, but that is only a very small portion of the kukishin ryu, it is not a complete art.
and they guy was not a grandmaster of it.

and whatever tanemura tries to say or Sato kimbei...they never actually and physically trained with takamatsu.

takamatsu even wrote a letter to hatsumi and a poem, telling him he is to carry on the 9 schools, no one else. that is why he inhereted takamatsu's scrolls. (this is post marked from takamatsu)

no one else trained with takamatsu. when i say that i am refering to a lineage thru him, whereby someone is currently teaching in our time. hatsumi is the only one.

again you have tried to take my words out of context, or you just like to argue.

either way, i'm done with that subject.

There's also the Kaminaga Shigemi line of Koro Ryu Koppojutsu. That comes from Takamatsu and is practiced today.

alright i am trying to be quick with my words.....

How about trying something new, like being accurate.


there is no lineage from takamatsu to someone, to somebody alive today teaching. who is legit. (and actually trained under takamatsu, with him....not somebody who was sent techniques by mail from takamatsu.

Not true.

Takamatsu taught Takashi Ueno whose family has continued to teach to this day.

Takamatsu taught within the context of the Kuki Family and they are still teaching.

Takamatsu taught Sato Kinbei and granted him Sokeship in Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu. Kinbei in turn passed this lineage on to Tanemura.

Why do you have such a hardon for the idea that no one but Hatsumi ever trained with Takamatsu?


and whatever tanemura tries to say or Sato kimbei...they never actually and physically trained with takamatsu.

Since presenting fact seems to do no good, let's flip it.

What proof do you have that Kinbei never trained with Takamatsu?

they never even met! rthose people did not learn by training with takamatsu.

i already told you,

takamatsu sent them techniques by mail. its a fact, that's why it wont be gotten over.

if you want to try to argue with it, then show any type of proof that they met.......

you cant, becuase it was by mail only.
they never actually practiced with takamatsu.

neither Ueno or Kimbei ever actually trained with takamatsu. again, you have no proof,

neither do they, and i havent seen it, any videos pics, there's no books/even a pic in a book, no one has seen proof that they even met!

think about it, why isnt there any pics of hatsumi w/ kimbei or Ueno with takamatsu or anything about them training together at takamatsu's? and Kimbei and Ueno have pics...with other people, why wouldnt they take a pic with takamatsu? atleast one...just one.
and dont you think if they were legit, they would atleast show a pic of themselves w/ Takamatsu? dont you think tanemura would want to get pics of his teachers with takamatsu? that would sure as hell solidify his claims.
this is why hatsumi put out his DVD with takamatsu.

neither do they, and i havent seen it, any videos pics, there's no books/even a pic in a book, no one has seen proof that they even met!

think about it, why isnt there any pics of hatsumi w/ kimbei or Ueno with takamatsu or anything about them training together at takamatsu's? and Kimbei and Ueno have pics...with other people, why wouldnt they take a pic with takamatsu? atleast one...just one.
and dont you think if they were legit, they would atleast show a pic of themselves w/ Takamatsu? dont you think tanemura would want to get pics of his teachers with takamatsu? that would sure as hell solidify his claims.
this is why hatsumi put out his DVD with takamatsu.

Hmmm, by the same token, have you ever wondered why there are no pictures of Takamatsu with Toda? Why wouldn't Takamatsu have taken a pic with his teacher Toda? at least just one?

Another thing: if no-one else trained with Takamatsu, how did Hatsumi meet him? I doubt that Hatsumi found him through the Internet.

did you know the kuki families scrolls were lost, and it was takamatsu who re-wrote them a copy of his? this is why no one else in the world is allowed to use KUKISHINDEN RYU?
they can only use KUKISHIN RYU....
its' becuase takamatsu gave the KUKISHINDEN RYU to Hatsumi only. (with some added material)

You can find the Kuki Family's comments on this piece of misinformation at

http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/mystic_e.htm

You are right in that the only lineage given to Hatsumi from those related to Kukishin Ryu was the "Kukishinden Ryu Happo Bikenjutsu." This was not the only lineage of the Kukishin Ryu that Takamatsu had access to nor the only one he taught in his lifetime.

You should really talk with Paul Richardson at some point about the history of the Ryuha within the Bujinkan. You seem to have picked up a lot of the mythology but not a lot of the facts. Kind of sad.

Still waiting for your proof that Ueno and Kinbei were simply correspondence students of Takamatsu. Simply saying it is so doesn't make it so.

Hmmm, by the same token, have you ever wondered why there are no pictures of Takamatsu with Toda? Why wouldn't Takamatsu have taken a pic with his teacher Toda? at least just one?

Another thing: if no-one else trained with Takamatsu, how did Hatsumi meet him? I doubt that Hatsumi found him through the Internet.

that is how hatsumi found takamatsu...

he was studying under Ueno, who happens to be his uncle....

Takamatsu sent techniques by mail to Ueno who practiced them with hatsumi...hatsumi in turn went to see takamatsu becuase Ueno told him that he did not have anything else to teach him. and to go to takamatsu because he was a real warrior.

and you claim that kimura learned what he did....then you need to recheck Tanemura's site becuase he doesnt even claim that...
it only says Jujutsu and bojutsu.
http://www.genbukan.org/Amatsu_Tatara_Martial_Art_and_/Shoto_Tanemura_s_Teachers/Kimura/body_kimura.html

again, you have avoided the question....to show evidence they trained together....
that's like saying i trained with ken shamrock...and the gracie's...whoever....
can you prove that i didnt?
stop trying to avoid whays obvious.

if you want to end this conversation like i said before thats fine, we can agree to disagree.

and it's not people like me who turn the bujinkan into a cult...
you misinterpret what i say.

like i said its a dead end conversation...but i'd rather train with hatsumi than anyone else, you there is no dispute of hatsumi's legitamicy...

Reptile I'm confused trying to follow what you are arguing. Can you clarify:
Are you saying that Takamatsu never taught anyone except Hatsumi? Or are you saying that Takamatsu did train others but they are all dead now?

all i am saying is that out of the people still alive/ can trace their lineage back to takamatsu
hatsumi is the only legit grandmaster. yes there may still be some people alive who claim otherwise...mostly in debate right now..

the dead dont matter...they never passed anything on to anyone.

Tanemura, Kimbei, Ueno and Kimura... however tanemura's teachers did not train with takamatsu.
he was in corraspondance thru mail with alot of martial artists and he mailed them techniques to try out. (that does not mean they trained with him.)

and as i said before, show me something worth mentioning....(let me finish)

if someone receives a menkyo kaiden in Bojutsu....

bojutsu is only a piece of a martial art. it is not a complete art. do you know how many weapons there are in Kukishinden ryu? on top of the taijutsu and dakentaijutsu techniques??
just because you have a menkyo kaiden does not make you a grandmaster.
so again, to me is that worth mentioning or equal to a grandmastership? no.
this is my point.

and what i meant about hatsumi being the leading authority is in regards to Ninja. not Budo as a whole. becuase then there would be a leading authority for each ryu/style and there are many types of Budo.

the main point here is this, Takamatsu intended for Hatsumi to be

the Soke...of all the 9 ryu. and no one else.

it is japanese culture and tradition for all students to train under

their teacher. you do not just leave... the soke provides the direction of that art


this is Japanese culture, custom and MA tradition.

takamatsu appointed Hatsumi as Soke. which is above any menkyo

kaiden. a SOKE does not have rank, they are above all ranks in that

art.-that makes the soke the leading authority in that art.

so why would people want to train under someone else?

i have a little respect for Manaka...becuase he is not lying about his past.

and i would reckognize tanemura as legit if he stuck to other MA he learned or chose a path more along the other chinese / karate styles he learned...but after he lied about his bujinkan expeirience, maybe he is lying about everything else as far as being a grandmaster.

there are too many questions with him...and a lack of honesty. and i think that honesty and integrity should be some qualities of a grandmaster...so i dont really think he's lived up to it.
and if he had stuck w/ hatsumi...who knows how much better he would be...

tanemura is very skilled yes...but to many questions with his background.

tanemura is very skilled yes...but to many questions with his background.





No. Actually not at all. Tanemura has been very open with his background. He also the recognized soke of Hontai Takagi Yoshin-ryu (among others) by the governing boards. A feet that Hatsumi has not done for his Togakure-ryu or any other ryu-ha.


Also for the sake of showing you how limited your knowledge is the grandmaster of Koto-ryu is
Kaminaga Shigemi . His Lineage comes through Ueno Takashi and his considered the Lineage Grandmaster by the governing Ko Ryu boards

where'd ya here that? of his website?....

do you have any facts from a legitimate website?

it is a fact that tanemura hides his bujinkan history...there is plenty of proof of that.

atleast hatsumi is not a liar. Hatsumi teaches from the scrolls...i go buy what is taught.

if hatsumi's scrolls are fakes...then how can you prove tanemura's are real either?

so every martial artist out there is all fake? its all made up?

either way...i will stick to my opinion.

i feel hatsumi's Budo/Ninpo is alot better than anyone else's.

we teach alot more than a bunch of techniques...

his training is much more realistic...

can we end this crap now? let's move on.

Can anyone here who knows about koryu state for the record exactly which of Hatsumi's 9 schools are in fact recognised as being genuine. Isn't there a long standing controversy about several of them? Especially the 3 ninjutsu schools.

Ninjew, you wrote that Koto Ryu is recognised by the koryu associations in Japan. I didn't know that. I thought that all of the 9 ryuha (except for Kukishinden Ryu and Takagi Yoshin Ryu) were in doubt.

Hatsumi teaches from the scrolls...i go buy what is taught.
Have you read from the scrolls? I have read bits and pieces from 3 ryu ha from copies Soke gave out. The are EXTREMELY vague so teaching from them or not teaching from them, it does not really matter. The are just like notes anyone takes during training, they are there to remind you what the kata was about.
Also you seem to be vey ill informed about koryu and JMA. Stop posting about things you have only read about.