Seen in person.

I also have 40 episodes of Yawara but just can't spend the $1000 some sites are asking for for the whole series.

Yeah, I downloaded 1-40something or other but it's a long series so I'll just read episode summaries if I every get the itch to find out "what happens" I think there's even a clip somewhere of Ryoko flipping a pokemon then being called "Yawara-chan" in a Jap commercial.

Where didja see the two do their thing? Because that's fucking amazing....

WorldWarCheese]Tonuzaba, wtf?Szozzleforddenzog? Or is that just me being an ignorant American again? Actually yes, you are being ignorant already at the first glance. I don't know if you're American too. Might be. Look, I could have written "she used to teach in Las Vegas" so it would be easier for you to read, but it wouldn't be true, so I didn't. So digest it, that when somebody asks about a certain location, he gets a precise answer and not one that is easy to read to an ignorant American!!!


Either way, you produce a STORY of a girl beating a guy, I produce VIDEOS ::LAAAAAA <-- angel's choir:: You produced videos like some -ing -un guys produced here: partners from the same style against each other (except for the TD video, which was not that impressive either). If a -ing -un person posts a video of -ing -un people training/sparring/doing a demo, he/she gets flamed. Everybody would go like "Oh, that only works against WT!"
You post here videos of the Japanese girl you have wet dreams about practising judo with another judoka and want me to watch in awe?
Show me a damned video, where a judoka girl uses judo succesfully against a man who is not interested in holding the folds of her gi, but who comes at her with punches and kicks, man!

And for the "lack of WT videos": imagine, there are people, who think that practising is more important than posting videos on the Net. You know, not so long ago, when posting videos on the Net was not possible because there was no Net, and before that, because there were no videocameras, anybody with doubts about a certain system's efficiency would actually have to move his/her ass over to their place to get a hint him/herself. This is a thing a great many of you guys are missing.

Tonuzaba

Well, I am honored by your presence, Lord Asia.

But allow me to dispute some of your points.


LORD ASIA]WC/WT/Whatever is the absolute WORSE art for a woman to take. (And as stated it wasn't created by an woman nor was it created for women. There is NOTHING in the art th suggest that it was.) Since the counter-argument against the story of WT being created by the nun Ng Mui and her student Yim Wing Tsun is based on the lack of historical evidence, you also cannot prove, that it wasn't so. Or do you have a historical evidence proving they did not exist? Not that it would really matter...
What matters are the principles and techniques. Here I would strongly disagree. What exactly in Wing Tsun's principles like: "avoiding and using/recycling the incoming force", for example, does not suggest that WT was created by a smaller/weaker/female person? Many people here on Bullshido toyed with the idea (OK, they claimed it to be true) that Wing Tsun's theory is great, it's only not applicated by WT, or rather that other arts, especially BJJ apply them more succesfully. Are you against these arguments too?


Simply a 120, 30, or 150lb woman is not going to beat 200+lb guy just by striking them regards of where they do it. Its extremely difficult for a man to do it. (This is not just WC but most striking based arts)
Are we talking about a cage fight or a random street attack? Would you argue that the mental approach of a man trying to steal a purse or rape somebody is different when facing a resisting female than the fighter's in a ring? Are you against the argument of many people here, that a resisting female victim of an attack might escape it due to the surprise effect of her resistance?


Kali is a much better for womens SD because it centers around EQUALIZERS (ie weapons).
If a woman has any kind of weapon or gun and knows how to use it and is in a situation where she can use it, she doesn't need no MA's. The thread started however with the question of hand to hand SD and not weapon usage...


The reason JUDO, BJJ, CAMBO, etc are also better suited is because it deals with a range that women are highly likely to find themselves in when dealing with a male attacker. We've already seen that many men have problems in that range it makes is more vialbe than telling a woman she han lap sao and pak sao her way to victory.
Wing Tsun, as I am sure you know, is an extreme close quarter combat system. Difference is, when the WT practitioner is at close range, he/she does not attempt to bring down the oponnent with locks or throws. Instead WT prefers to use quick series of penetrating attacks with fists, palm edges, elbows, knees, etc. Might as well be a question of preference for the thread starting lady. Lap sau is a practising drill. Pak sau is a technique often described on Bullshido as one of the most useful WT techniques (mostly by people with little or no WT experience though...). So in a fight, no female WT trainee would use lap sau. Pak sau maybe, if there was a punch to use it against. Otherwise she would just hit with whatever would suit the given attack/movement of the man.


Just to add my oldest daughter is 10. She has repeatedly pin and submitted guys bigger, stronger, and older than here (her 14 yr old cousin in ATL is the most common target) just with the basic knowlege of BJJ and Judo I've taught her. Even at a throwdown here she RNCed a boy at her school (his dad trains at the same gym we had the throwdown at)
I don't really understand why you are quoting the games of your child as an argument about fighting.


There is is are reason why many of the SD courses and manuals through the last centruy were mostly based on Judo/Jiu Jitsu.
I have no statistics on the content of the self defence courses of the last century. Do you? Might be true nevertheless. However, in this particular thread I did not say to nsayn to go and do Wing Tsun. I offered her an option. Unless she wants to train for championships, that is, in which case I must agree with you, Lord Asia: don't do Wing Tsun.

Regards,
Tonuzaba

Some good reading:
http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_svinth4_1199.htm
http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_svinth_0201.htm

Yeah, and thanks for the links. I am at it already.

Tonuzaba

AAAhmed46, you were faster to ask JKDChick:

I guess based upon dozens of kali fighter females winning UFC and Pride championships...

Tonuzaba

This has got to win the most pathetic attempt at sarcastic irony EVER. I mean, really.

I mention Kali because I train in it and so do all the best fighters I've ever met personally. In other words, from experience.

Since the counter-argument against the story of WT being created by the nun Ng Mui and her student Yim Wing Tsun is based on the lack of historical evidence, you also cannot prove, that it wasn't so. Or do you have a historical evidence proving they did not exist? Not that it would really matter...

YOU CANNOT PROVE A NEGATIVE, IT IS A LOGICAL IMPOSSIBLITY.

Therefore, buddy, THE ONUS IS ON YOU TO PROVE THAT IT IT TRUE, NOT ON ASIA TO PROVE THAT IT IS NOT.

Hell, maybe I created Wing Chun, after building my fucking time machine. Can't disprove it, can you? Then you better start bowing down in worship of me....

That's about the level of your rhetoric and we've seen it before. Asia said it right about Kali, it's about equalizing. He said it right about BJJ and Judo too. I've fought and defeated males 100 pounds heavier than me with BJJ. Not with a fucking chi sao.

Buddy boy, I take JKD. We use the tiny little bits of WC that are useful for drilling ... and when we spar we go to arts that, you know, WORK and stuff.


JKDChick, at the risk of banning and being branded as chauvinist. The proof is in the art. It makes no sense, and nobody has any idea how it really works, like women...

*Runs away from gathering crowd with pitchforks and torches*

What? This is funny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Dv5EWmuBcY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WdpANDnVMY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs0m8whGy54
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vwn728U3_eA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiPVeC4ouGU


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8XPvn8ivg4

Let me know if you need more :P

Thanks, AnnaTrocity,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8XPvn8ivg4
Let me know if you need more :P

but a less high-lighted video from a TD sparring of the exact same two persons was one of the links I got from the guy, whom I asked in return to post a video of
a female judoka succesfully applying judo against a man attacking with punches and kicks.
Which this video is not about...

I wouldn't go as far as most of you here go regarding Wing Tsun, saying: until I see it I don't think it's possible... I'd just like to see it...

And the guy sparring here didn't really give hard times to the lady. Which does not lower her (your?) fighting abilities.

Tonuzaba

Settle for BJJ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN5wK7I5Pr4

This has got to win the most pathetic attempt at sarcastic irony EVER. I mean, really.
I mention Kali because I train in it and so do all the best fighters I've ever met personally. In other words, from experience.
So if I mention Wing Tsun as effective because I train in it and know it from experience, I get fucked with "show us videos" and "go to UFC" or maybe "show us videos of yourself going to UFC". Kali - which I respect - however, goes without the need of video or UFC. Because you and some of the best fighters train in it? Is that the reason why?

And with some level of self-critique A LOT OF PEOPLE HERE could easily beat me to the most pathetic attempt at sarcastic irony ever title anytime... For example those, who have no experience with something they think they know is not good...

Tonuzaba

Settle for BJJ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN5wK7I5Pr4
Hey, thanx for the fast reply. Seen this video here too. So is that you?
But in honor of the Wing Tsun bashers tradition, I cannot possibly settle fo BJJ instead of judo. And this is not a challenge to you, it's Worldwarcheese's turn to prove the deadly female judo now...
Tonuzaba

Since the counter-argument against the story of WT being created by the nun Ng Mui and her student Yim Wing Tsun is based on the lack of historical evidence, you also cannot prove, that it wasn't so. Or do you have a historical evidence proving they did not exist?

As JKDChick stated I don't have to prove a negative. Its kinda odd that given how influential Ng Mui is suppose to be to MA that there is NO record of here other than oral fairy tales. This is odd in a culture that is well known for keeping records.


Are we talking about a cage fight or a random street attack? Would you argue that the mental approach of a man trying to steal a purse or rape somebody is different when facing a resisting female than the fighter's in a ring? Are you against the argument of many people here, that a resisting female victim of an attack might escape it due to the surprise effect of her resistance?

It depends on the intent of the attacker. If he is merely trying to snack here purse or cop a feel then he might be dissuaded by resistance. But if he is intent on more mayhem then no if she does it wrong. Generally trying to boke the eyes or kick the groining, etc are not going to be enough. However choking them unconciousl or breaking an appendage helps here alot.


f a woman has any kind of weapon or gun and knows how to use it and is in a situation where she can use it, she doesn't need no MA's. The thread started however with the question of hand to hand SD and not weapon usage...


Incorrect. Just having a weapon isn't enough it takes knowledge in using it effectively. Also weapons are very valuable in SD, especially womens SD which is what the thread starter was asking about. H2H methods should always go along with weapon skills because just carrying one isn't a guarantee in begin able to employ it.


Wing Tsun, as I am sure you know, is an extreme close quarter combat system. Difference is, when the WT practitioner is at close range, he/she does not attempt to bring down the oponnent with locks or throws. Instead WT prefers to use quick series of penetrating attacks with fists, palm edges, elbows, knees, etc. Might as well be a question of preference for the thread starting lady. Lap sau is a practising drill. Pak sau is a technique often described on Bullshido as one of the most useful WT techniques (mostly by people with little or no WT experience though...). So in a fight, no female WT trainee would use lap sau. Pak sau maybe, if there was a punch to use it against. Otherwise she would just hit with whatever would suit the given attack/movement of the man

I know what WT is and its still one of the worse choices for a lady to learn for SD. Bottom line. Simple fact is your WT lady is far form likely to deal with a close quarters situation with someone whit 70 to 80lbs on her by hitting him.


I don't really understand why you are quoting the games of your child as an argument about fighting.

Because they were FIGHTING and that she can't defeat them trying to punch and kick them. Thats because grappling based arts has much better tools in dealing with a larger, stronger attacker than trying to hit them.


I have no statistics on the content of the self defence courses of the last century. Do you?
Yes.


Unless she wants to train for championships, that is, in which case I must agree with you, Lord Asia: don't do Wing Tsun.

No you agree with me because I'm right. WT is bad for womans SD. Noone said anything about championships.

So if I mention Wing Tsun as effective because I train in it and know it from experience, I get fucked with "show us videos" and "go to UFC" or maybe "show us videos of yourself going to UFC". Kali - which I respect - however, goes without the need of video or UFC. Because you and some of the best fighters train in it? Is that the reason why?

Straw man. I have made none of those assertions about anything you've said.

You lose "Basic Rhetoric 101".


And with some level of self-critique A LOT OF PEOPLE HERE could easily beat me to the most pathetic attempt at sarcastic irony ever title anytime... For example those, who have no experience with something they think they know is not good...

Tonuzaba

No, you see the issue is THAT THOSE OF US WHO DERIDE WC DO SO BECAUSE WE HAVE EXPERIENCE WITH IT. I do, for instance. My contempt for it arose AFTER seeing in real life. The arguments -- to forestall your next stupid tactic -- that a) there are guys who practice WC could beat me up and b) that I didn't see the "real" Wing Chun are pre-negated. There are lots of people who can beat me up, my personal skill or lack there of doesn't add or detract from WC's effectiveness. And whether I've seen the "real" stuff or not, the level of crappy in all WC practitioners I've trained with or observed was scarily consistent. They all sucked equally, really.

You know what the real difference is? I've sparred -- and kicked the **** out -- guys who'd trained in WC for years. But put me on the mats with a 115 pound Chinese guy who's done BJJ for 6 months and it's a good fight. Yeah, likely I'll tap him, but we can have an actual session of SPARRING. As opposed to the last WC guy I saw who whined constantly about getting hit, could not deviate from a drill pattern even when instructed to and when he couldn't intimidate me tried to hurt me and got casually knocked down -- then never came back. And I found his reactions to be utterly typical.

And yes, he was skinny, pesudo mystical white guy.

Thanks, AnnaTrocity,



but a less high-lighted video from a TD sparring of the exact same two persons was one of the links I got from the guy, whom I asked in return to post a video of
a female judoka succesfully applying judo against a man attacking with punches and kicks.
Which this video is not about...

I wouldn't go as far as most of you here go regarding Wing Tsun, saying: until I see it I don't think it's possible... I'd just like to see it...

And the guy sparring here didn't really give hard times to the lady. Which does not lower her (your?) fighting abilities.

Tonuzaba

Alright fucktard, I'll bite. But first lemme state "OMG A RNC!?!?! WE DON'T HAVE THAT IN JUDO!!!!!!!" Taking..... someone's...... baaack......??? Me no know of such nonsense, in Judo we just throw people and it's the only thing we can do! And we can't even throw as good as normal, it's too fancy!! PFFFFFT!!!

Fact: Unlike _ing _un, the history of BJJ IS known.
Fact: BJJ comes from..... from..... ::think, Cheese, THINK!:: OH! I GOT IT! It comes from JUDO!

The concept of dude punching vs grappling and grappler closing the distance and thusly controlling the fight by eventually getting the opponent on the ground IS judo, granted, we generally dont hop on people's backs, but how many punches did the guy land after our good female friend here?

The fact is a judoka closing the range from punch to clinch and clinch to toss is quite, quite achievable. I see no problem with accepting the wonderful vid of that krotty guy getting butt-raped (:ky: ) and you're just being a thickheaded fool for not accepting that.:eusa_wall

Now, here's something:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9b7e1wtiP4

Note: I heard this was possibly staged, so I WILL search for more. It's a pity that even if I stuck some mellons in my shirt and fought someone I would still be a 200+ lb person so can't use my own body as a test subject, but what can I do?

Theoretically tomorrow there should be video of me posted belly-back suplexing someone(male), thats kind of like judo.