I was watching a very interesting clip of Dog Bros. staff work (http://dogbrothersvideo.com/staff.wmv) and i wonder if there is any reason for the lack of thrusting movements.

Any ideas, info....?

I was watching a very interesting clip of Dog Bros. staff work (http://dogbrothersvideo.com/staff.wmv) and i wonder if there is any reason for the lack of thrusting movements.

Any ideas, info....?

DCS,

I will admit that i am at work and have not watched this video yet (yeah i should shut the **** up) However with a background in FMA the Idea of the thrusting movments were put in primarily for edged weapons. I would say that it is very likely the same idea is being followed by the DBMA guys since a staff thrust while margeinally effective is not a good as a swing attack.

**Warning Planktime has no seen this video and will be watching after his 12 hour shift at the salt mine. Until then please feel free to flame, taunt or otherwise torture him. Not like you needed this warning as permission.**

Thrusts are too dangerous. That's why they don't do them.

Thrusts are too dangerous. That's why they don't do them.

Nice. Too deadly

Not seen vid my comp won't handle right now.

From the little stick work i've done i'd guess it's because if your thrust is parried away from you & down it will be hard to recover, and leave you open, esp. with a longer staff (bo, 1/4)

(to make it clearer is you thrust leading left and they parry to you right, say with the bottom of the stick and then having an over head set up)

Thrusts are too dangerous. That's why they don't do them.

Watch the clip again. There are punyo's with the staff shown (2:10) and positions and movement where a thrust could be made that transitions into an angled strike (2:29 and 3:05). Thrusts are there and are tought but as this is training for a staff as a staff not as a staff for a spear I would suspect they are used less often in fights. (Just as they are in stick fights). I'd take the thrust with a staff in trade for a full swing to the opponents head any day.

You can't thrust in a realistic fashon while training with a rigid training weapon. I aint making this **** up...

You can't thrust in a realistic fashon while training with a rigid training weapon. I aint making this **** up...

Ok so I watched the video. First to all the DBMA guys out there....**** you guys are my heros. Next In reference to Ronin's idea above i think i see what he is saying. The chance for injury is very high with some thrusts. There tendancey to penetrate and runpture organs ect may make it difficult to train with them in a live full contact environment. I cannot however say that i know this for sure. I would like to hear more thoughts on this subject from Redelvis or Poidog. They would have more of an expert opinion then I.

PT

You can't thrust in a realistic fashon while training with a rigid training weapon. I aint making this **** up...

Please elaborate. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, just curious about your viewpoint. Are you saying because it hurts too much or because it doesn't respond like a non-rigid weapon? Does this apply to sticks as well?

Do you consider a punyo a thrust of sorts?

You can't thrust in a realistic fashon while training with a rigid training weapon. I aint making this **** up...
I would like some elaboration too. I'm a former fencer and FMAer and whenever I've sparred, thrusting was uncommon because it was ineffective, not dangerous. With a stick, it was really hard to land with any force, and unless you were spot on you usually took a brutal shot as a result of the thrust. Granted, sticks aren't staves, but they're pretty similar.

I too await an expert's opinion. I've read that thrusting with a 2 handed rigid weapon is too dangerous for training. A light weight escrima stick? I don't know. Where are the ARMA guys???

I don't know. Where are the ARMA guys???

Not an ARMA guy, but here's my WMA perspective:

First, thrusting with staves was very definitely done, sometimes even emphasized, and I can dig up plenty of references to that effect. Here's an example summarizing how to fight staff against sword:


Now for the vantage of the short staff against the sword and buckler, sword & target, two handed sword, single sword, sword and dagger, or rapier and poniard, there is no great question to be in any of these weapons.

Whensoever any blow or thrust shall be strongly made with the staff, they are ever in false place, in the carriage of the wards, for if at any of these six weapons he carries his ward high & strong for his head, as of necessity he must carry it very high, otherwise it will be too weak to defend a blow being strongly made at the head, then will his space be too wide, in due time to break the thrust from his body.

Again, if he carries his ward lower, thereby to be in equal space for readiness to break both blow & thrust, then in that place his ward is too low, and too weak to defend the blow of the staff: for the blow being strongly made at the head upon that ward, will beat down the ward and his head together, and put him in great danger of his life.

And here is to be noted, that if he fights well, the staff man strikes but at the head, and thrusts presently under at the body. And if a blow is first made, a thrust follows, and if a thrust is first made, a blow follows, and in doing of any of them, the one breeds the other.

-- George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence (1599)


See that bit that says "beat down the ward and his head together"? That leads into the second point: whether with blow or thrust, full-weight staves are just fucking scary. Silver's talking about a staff 8-9 feet long, which is especially scary, but even with a 5-6 foot staff it's easy to generate enough power to crack a skull.

Third: blows can hit harder, but a strong thrust has enough power to break someone's face or ribs. Take a full-weight hardwood staff and, from an on guard position, practice thrusting single-handed from the rear hand at a hard wall you don't care about marking up or at a tree you don't like. (I say do this single-handed because you get the longest reach and travel with this method, so it actually hits harder than most two-handed thrusts.) Or just take my word for it when I say that this is something I hope I never get hit by.

Fourth: training weapons of rattan or the like are going to be lighter than this and somewhat flexible, but if they're straight and get hit exactly on end, they still don't flex much, if at all. The heavier the weapon is, the worse this problem gets. There's also the issue of what'll happen if the weapon breaks; with hardwood particularly, that can unexpectedly turn it into a spear.

I too await an expert's opinion. I've read that thrusting with a 2 handed rigid weapon is too dangerous for training. A light weight escrima stick? I don't know. Where are the ARMA guys???

Talked to guy who has been a Dog Brother for over 8 years. Thrusts with staves (sp) are allowed. (I just couldn't remember from what I have seen). Didn't bother to ask regarding effectivness but based upon what I have trained it would seem dangerous to try (leaves you open) which goes back to my earlier post about taking the thrust over a full fledged swing anyday.

In terms of sticks I was semi-baiting you for a response and for that I apologize. We do train to thrust with sticks however it is mostly done off an entry to the clinch. i.e. roof block with the shoulder rotating around for an upward thrust to the mid section. (Thrust would be aimed for the neck region in a actual street altercation using a knife or blunt object). Does it hurt? Very much so in this situation and if your lucky is a fight ender. I believe the technique is taken from Illustrisimo if I remember correctly. Poi could prob correct me if I'm wrong.

That addresses the DBMA portion of the original question. In regards to ARMA and two handed swords etc. I claim complete and total ignorance. I imagine they hurt a lot more than a rattan staff. (Although, in the gathering guys fight with big staffs!)

edit - if the staff were to splinter or break I'm sure the fight would be stopped until the weapons could be replaced or the guys wouldn't use the broken end. The idea is not to kill each other.

:viking:

Thrusts dont have any give with remotely realistically stiff wooden weapons and can easily wind up hitting a lot harder then one intends to (you never know when your opponent will come forward and eat it)

As someone said above thrusts were common in staff work in WMA, being a highly favored attack. While I dont do much staff sparring I can certainly attest to the power and effectiveness of a solid thrust to the opponents face. Saying that you'll trade taking a thrust to land a blow is like saying you'll trade eating a stiff jab to land your right. Sounds good in theory but the jab/thrust gets there a lot quicker and will likely ruin your swing or at least take almost all the power out of it.

We do train to thrust with sticks however it is mostly done off an entry to the clinch. i.e. roof block with the shoulder rotating around for an upward thrust to the mid section. (Thrust would be aimed for the neck region in a actual street altercation using a knife or blunt object). Does it hurt? Very much so in this situation and if your lucky is a fight ender. I believe the technique is taken from Illustrisimo if I remember correctly. Poi could prob correct me if I'm wrong.
If we're talking about the same one, it's actually from Pekiti Tirsia.

If we're talking about the same one, it's actually from Pekiti Tirsia.
There is a lot of thrusting in pekiti tirsia, but I thought that DBMA guys generally stayed away from it because, well, a stick is a stick, not a sword, knife, etc. Is that right?