The "Attack with Bottle" was one of the most unrealistic attacks and defenses I have seen outside of a Ninja film.

It certainly helps to have the grimacing attacker STOP in his attack to allow you to try a technique. Do they teach that in Attacker School?

--J.D.

Oh bloody hell you're going to make me do chi sao aren't you. Don't blame me if I get sick on you. Oh no, I wouldn't stand a chance against the mighty Vomit-Fu!:XXpuke:
It doesn't have to be chi sau, anything hands on would do, besides some talking (after the TD)...
Tonuzaba

I'm a Wing chun guy and I have to say that I cannot defend what I see in the vids. I won't go down the path way of lineage arguments. I can only say that what I see in those vids does not represent anything that I work on. Not all wing chun is the same. But let's also keep in mind that just becuase you train on thing you cannot train another.

I'm a Wing chun guy and I have to say that I cannot defend what I see in the vids. I won't go down the path way of lineage arguments. I can only say that what I see in those vids does not represent anything that I work on. Not all wing chun is the same. But let's also keep in mind that just becuase you train on thing you cannot train another.

And so the cycle begins again.

there's nothing you can say about wing chun/tsun chjuyn that hasn't been said and laughed at before.

Everyone thinks their _ing _un is the exception that trains properly. Read Tonuzaba's early posts for example, or the early posts of the countless wing chunners who chime in at the middle of these stupid, massive _ing _un threads with posts that, no disrespect, yours could have been cut and pasted from.
_ing _un just isn't very good. What your sifu tells you about it being the ultimate fighting style for a small vs. large person, is not true. He probably believes it himself because he's never fought anyone apart from drunk morons.
The doormen you know who use _ing _un? They only fight... drunk morons. A competent fighter of their size, sober, would **** them up.
The special forces who use _ing _un? They never actually do, because they have guns, and probably some Judo training too.

Have we covered everything?

Edit... a member for 4 years and still chunning... for fucksake...

OK, my fault.
Thank you for your post - you bring up arguments, which is great to read after so many thoughtless bashings. As for the videos on the EWTO site - they're just videos. One can argue about the quality of their content, one thing is sure, they're not meant to be the uber-proof of Wing Tsun effectivity or credibility. For WT trainees, they might be interesting bits of visual information. For non-WT people, bullets for bashing.
I agree fully, that the person kicked in the knee can react in a thousand ways. One of them could be the one from this video. There's no banner saying "this is the only and ultimate solution to a glass attack" or "this is the only way a guy attacking you with a glass is going to behave". This is simply a short video showing a certain situation.

Tonuzaba
P.S.:

The guy in white is GM Leung Ting.

It's not so much an issue of attacking the vids themselves. Frankly WC bashing bores me I have been here enough to hear and read all arguments and notice that they just get repeated and rehashed.

What interests me is the ideas of principles and concepts.

The bottle attacker vid was showing one technique and can you judge an art from vids showing specific technique?

Frankly yes I believe you can.

I feel that you can boil all MA's downs to a very simple principle.

Boxing for example. - If I can hit you harder than you hit me I'll eventually win the fight.

From this all techniques of how to strike, how to avoid being hit , combo's ,foot work, power generation, sparring, strength, conditioning and stamina come from.
This basic principle has been proven empirically in fights over and over again.

Wrestling - if i can pick you up and slam you down I'll win the fight. Again all techniques and work evolves from this.

Same things with BJJ, MT and many other arts.

So what's the simple guiding principle of WC?

It seems to me that it is that speed and over strength and power will win the fight.

That if you can quickly strike someone in just the right place at the right time you can incapacitate them. And that the techniques of WC flow from this main principle.

Vid after vid of WC masters shows the exact same thing, A quick slap and the attacker falls into the fetal position.

The fact is this principle has been show time and time again to be false. Speed with out real power is useless. In real fights with adrenaline flowing a quick strike will largely be ignored.

The bottle attack vid is just one illustration of how the basic principle of WC is flawed. And the techniques that flow from it are flawed

Do all WC schools teach stuff like this? Maybe not. Some might be better and cross train and not rely on those types of attacks but the majority seem to.

Also if you take a WC base and cross train in other arts that reject the basic principle of WC are you still doing WC? Or just reinvented JKD?

It's not so much an issue of attacking the vids themselves. Frankly WC bashing bores me I have been here enough to hear and read all arguments and notice that they just get repeated and rehashed.

What interests me is the ideas of principles and concepts.

The bottle attacker vid was showing one technique and can you judge an art from vids showing specific technique?

Frankly yes I believe you can.

I feel that you can boil all MA's downs to a very simple principle.

Boxing for example. - If I can hit you harder than you hit me I'll eventually win the fight.

From this all techniques of how to strike, how to avoid being hit , combo's ,foot work, power generation, sparring, strength, conditioning and stamina come from.
This basic principle has been proven empirically in fights over and over again.

Wrestling - if i can pick you up and slam you down I'll win the fight. Again all techniques and work evolves from this.

Same things with BJJ, MT and many other arts.

So what's the simple guiding principle of WC?

It seems to me that it is that speed and over strength and power will win the fight.

That if you can quickly strike someone in just the right place at the right time you can incapacitate them. And that the techniques of WC flow from this main principle.

Vid after vid of WC masters shows the exact same thing, A quick slap and the attacker falls into the fetal position.

The fact is this principle has been show time and time again to be false. Speed with out real power is useless. In real fights with adrenaline flowing a quick strike will largely be ignored.

The bottle attack vid is just one illustration of how the basic principle of WC is flawed. And the techniques that flow from it are flawed

Do all WC schools teach stuff like this? Maybe not. Some might be better and cross train and not rely on those types of attacks but the majority seem to.

Also if you take a WC base and cross train in other arts that reject the basic principle of WC are you still doing WC? Or just reinvented JKD?

*waits for someone to start posting physics formulae about speed and force*

*logs out and runs away*

The fact is this principle has been show time and time again to be false. Speed with out real power is useless. In real fights with adrenaline flowing a quick strike will largely be ignored.

A very fast pillow is still just a pillow.

--J.D.

A very fast pillow is still just a pillow.

--J.D.

GoJu pillow techniques are teh d3@dly

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/US/West/11/16/offbeat.largest.pillowfight.ap/story.pillowfight.ap.jpg

Hi,

For those who asked,

My reasons for leaving WT:


Too much money involved for learning a simple curriculum.
The student programs were created so that maximum money can be milked from students.
The student programs were made to "look" like WT,rather than as a "way" of learning the system,a classic case of thinking that the "finger that points to the moon" is the moon.
The incessant hero worship of people of questionable skill.
The constant dissing of all other martial arts as being rubbish and ineffective.
My instructor/s were German,and these guys are the worst of the WT Indoctrinated lot.
The main reasons:


A visit to Hong Kong and a meeting with the "Grandmaster of almyghtiness" left me very disappointed (said GMs skill is apparent in the video link I posted earlier).
The said GM has incorporated a lot of his ideas from Gulao Wing Chun and Pan Nam Wing Chun and is marketing them as high level WT,"secret stuff!!!".
The Germans and I paid a visit to one of the Wing Chun schools in the Mainland,after watching the class all of them declared unanimously that 'thats not authentic Wing Chun",the level of ego involved here is appalling!!!
The final clincher was that principles and techniques taken from the three internal systems of Taichi,Pakua and Hsing-yi were presented as "high level secret WT",as examples:
The Hsing-Yi Ostrich or Tai bird Form is said to be a secret WT technique taught by Yip Man.An excercise where students walked the circle (as in Pakua) while chain-punching into the centre was presented as an advanced training method! and a final example ,presenting Taichi push hands as an advanced chi-sao program.End of Rant!:5shocking

It seems to me that it is that speed and over strength and power will win the fight...

...Do all WC schools teach stuff like this?

Structure. I've heard very little about speed, and have even been told that speed is useless without power, that one body-jarring hit is better than a bunch of patty-cake, etc. Structure, however, is hammered in over and over.

Then again, you might not think anything special about the structure either. :new_blowi

Dagon

P.S. Why the **** am I back on this thread again and why hasn't it died yet?

P.P.S. Oh yeah! It's about WT sucking! Not VT or WC or XT etc. Carry on.

Pakua4581:

Good rant.

Welcome to . . . the light!!

--J.D.

Pakua4581, part of what you wrote reinforced my information about the level of suck in the EWTO... The other part, however, surprised me. See, I've never been to Hong Kong, I've only participated in seminars under GM Leung Ting in Hungary. He never taught useless mystical **** to students or instructors alike. I never heard or read him saying anything else than that there are no secret Wing Tsun techniques - just a lot of training. I've never seen anything resembling the Tai chi pushing hands in chi sau we've been taught in HWTO/EEWTO. I state this not the get into lineage disputes, I'd just like to know more about the things you claimed, because my personal experience with GM Leung Ting was different. Tonuzaba

Pakua4581, part of what you wrote reinforced my information about the level of suck in the EWTO... The other part, however, surprised me. See, I've never been to Hong Kong, I've only participated in seminars under GM Leung Ting in Hungary. He never taught useless mystical **** to students or instructors alike. I never heard or read him saying anything else than that there are no secret Wing Tsun techniques - just a lot of training. I've never seen anything resembling the Tai chi pushing hands in chi sau we've been taught in HWTO/EEWTO. I state this not the get into lineage disputes, I'd just like to know more about the things you claimed, because my personal experience with GM Leung Ting was different. Tonuzaba

Tony, I think you're misleading yourself about the differences between the ETWO's and HWTO's training. I went to 2 Leung Ting seminars while I was training, and it seemed to me he was teaching exactly the same stuff we were learning from our instructors.
Also, I know there's a 3rd technician who 'defected' to Sifu Maday, name's Julian Hitch. He left the NWTO-GB and affiliated himself with the HWTO, and months later was declared a 'master' of Wing Tsun, he says by Sifu Maday. He learnt all his WT in England, so I'd be surprised if it was hugely different.

I also disagree about the content of what Leung Ting teaches - he does teach 'mystical ****', except he disguises it with pseudo-psience. You need to learn to think for yourself a bit more, and suck up bullshit a bit less.
I remember distinctly some massively complicated diagram of the human body cut up into a pie, with all sorts of centrelines and sections, saying all the time that this is SCIENCE!!!. It's not science at all, that's my problem with it - it's esoteric, outdated theories with no place in modern martial arts.

Can you name/list the 1% non-**** you experienced in WT and the hugest chunks from the 99% that is **** in WT according to your personal experience?
Tonuzaba

I'm sorry, but this is 2006, almost 2007. For me to name everything that has been argued on this site a million times over just for your personal gratification, I'd have to get paid or something. I'm not gonna do lots of searching, typing and stuff like that just to make YOU happy. Who the **** do you think you are that everyone has to appease you before not enjoying the lousy mix of techniques and theory and training methods that is _ing _un?

Now, you're from Slovakia and the MA's are usually rougher on the eastern block, but if you can't see the obvious misconception and blatant disregard for actual "realistic" pressure-testing of techniques and methods in the wide majority of schools in your chosen style, you are delusional, not JUST in "the only _ing _un school who does it right".

And lastly, for a personal opinion of my own, one which you sadly can't say is wrong or right, because I simply believe so just like you belive in your _un.

"The 'trapping range' should be forgotten and never spoken of ever again."

fanatical]For me to name everything that has been argued on this site a million times over just for your personal gratification, I'd have to get paid or something.
Listen, fanatical, all I can offer you is some vBucks, in exchange of you trying to reply reasonably to my postings... :-)
All I wanted from you was a statement like:
"I use the pai jarn elbow technique as the only thing useful from my wing chun studies, the rest never worked on resisting opponents" or something like that.
What you did was reinforce my belief that you do not have a personal wing chun experience. Maybe I'm wrong.
But if I'd write that BJJ sucks and you'd ask me what exactly sucks and I'd write well it has been said a million times - it wouldn't do for an answer, would it?
I accept your choice and your disliking of wing chun, I just wanted to know the factual reasons for it, in your personal experience. I cannot force you to elaborate, of course.
It's just that I'd expect you to, since you post and react on wing chun related threads/topics too, so I thought you'd like to discuss...

The 'trapping range' should be forgotten and never spoken of ever again.
You mean the chi sau stuff again? That some think chi sau drills equal sparring? They're wrong. Wing Tsun does not concentrate on the poon sau "range".

Tonuzaba