You don't get a 10th Dan for nothing.



Even though he passed on, bless his soul. Who gave him the 10th dan.

I will second Villian's rant.

In my experience from training with various heads of many different Visitation arts, i.e., Lil' John Davis, David James, Danny Torres, Danny Paulo, Jose Velez, and Frank Edwards, Jr. (most in a seminar setting with the exception of Danny Torres and David James), the techniques are practiced in an alive manner, punches are not pulled, throws are not "softened", and submission are done at full speed (sometimes to the detriment of the student in my opinion).

for more information on these arts see the following link...

http://www.bullshido.com/articles/vee-arnis-9.html

Meh, I wasn't trolling the system, I was skeptical about that particular post. One of my BJJ instructors is also a BB in the sanuces system btw.

Since we are at it, and we have two people with close, first hand knowledge on the system (Villain and GJ), I'll ask this question (which I asked a while ago but went unanswered.) Are you familiar with the Atem-Ryu Jiu Jitsu/Chendokan Aikido system?

http://atemi-ryu.com/pages/c_found.html

Professon Chenique trained under Dr. Power and Master Vistacion. The system have several dojos in South Florida, but I haven't heard of anyone commenting on the system (and given the enormous amount of secret scroll ninjers in South Florida, I can only scratch my head in wonder.)

It is my understanding that the Atem-Ryu Jiu Jitsu system developed by Prof. Chenique is a "Visitation Art". However, from my experience in the Visitation Arts, each person who went on to head up or develop their own system has a different focus.

For example from what I have witnessed I have seen the following different focus from the follow Visitation Arts:

David James (inherited the system from Prof. Vee) - Heavy focus on full contact street self defense. Utilizes all kinds of joint locks and strikes to incapacitate your adversary and is practiced under fully alive training.

Jose Velez - Strong focus on the judo aspects of Prof. Vee's system as well as goshinjitsu (self defense) applications.

Dan Torres - A split focus between Judo, Goshinjitsu, and Grappling.

Danny Paulo - Focuses on the kali and escrima teachings of Prof. Vee.

Frank Edward's Jr./Sr. - Self defense and grappling/judo focus.

These are the systems I have had exposure to. As far as Atemi-Ryu or Suances-Ryu I have not trained either in seminar or in classes with either Mosses Powell or Prof. Chenique so I could not accurately comment on how they train day in and day out.

To steal from my Vee Arnis article...


Fighting Critique:

Advantages:
- Full range of resistant training.
- Regular full contact sparring.
- Strong ground game (integrates aspects of Judo and Jiu-jitsu).
- Depending upon school, stand-up game may have a heavy Muay Thai influence.
- Complete opportunity to learn what works and what does not work in as “real” an environment as one can get outside actual street fighting or stepping in the octagon.
- While core fighting theory is consistent, the emphasis is for the art to fit the student, i.e., use what works for you, your body type, your mind set.

Disadvantages:
- Training focus can vary greatly between affiliated schools, i.e., stand-up vs. grappling, sport MMA/Submission Grappling vs. Self-Defense, judo vs. jujitsu, weapons (knife/kali sticks) vs. no weapons.
- Training intensity can vary greatly between affiliated schools.
- Schools which emphasize stand-up or throwing may underemphasize the importance of the ground game.
- Schools which emphasize throwing and the ground game may underemphasize the need for stand-up training.

Hmmm, thanks for the post GJ. The reason I derailed the thread a bit is because the Atemi-Ryu dojos have arnis/escrima classes, and there Hollywood dojo is a mere miles from my BJJ school.

The lack of uniformity in the focus of their training is a bit problematic, but if they do things for real, I will be more than happy to give those escrima classes a try.

The lack of uniformity in the focus of their training is a bit problematic

To be honest with you that is the exact reason I left my last school under Danny Torres, i.e., I wanted to focus on the technical details of my grappling game (thus I went to ATT BJJ) and didn't really care too much about the judo or self-defense aspects of the training.

However, saying that, we always trained VERY alive in all disciplines. My only experience with Prof. Vee's kali/escrima came through a seminar with Danny Paulo. We wacked at each other after the drilling and even sparred a bit with the sticks. It wasn't Dog Brother's but it was still pretty cool.

Check it out and get back to us with a review or your opinion.

There. Fixed for ya.

Before the idiots start coming out in force please keep in mind that Moses' style was cultivated under real conditions. Believe it or not people in the inner cities on the East coast do resist and try to hurt each other during confrontations, even if they don't necessarily go to a mat and ask a ref to mediate the conflict.

Sensei Wigginton, my teacher and my karate sensei, sensei Ben, came out of this same environment. Many people got broken up using these techniques and theyare designed to work against weapons, etc. Most guys that I know related to Powell's dojo and teaching a while have been called out and been succesful when they need to be.

I trained with Prof Powell at a seminar in Los Angeles once...

One of the Atemi-Ryu instructors (pretty sure his first name is "Vinny"-- He is a big Italian Body Builder type) was there as well.

Although I have a Black Belt in Japanese-Hawaiian LARPing (AKA Danzan Ryu Jujitsu) I was just doing BJJ at the time of the prof.'s seminar. But I had experience in various "American " jujitsu styles on the west coast ( DZR, Budoshi, Seki Ryu)

The Prof wasn't feeling well, so he didn't do much teaching, but there were a lot of high-ranked Sanuces / Kumari Ryu(?) / Atemi Ryu people at the seminar walking around & teaching.

They were nice people, but...

But what they do is 80% complete BS; non-functional and VERY stylized. Basically, flash over function.

I don't know what "street" they think they are training for, but it is not on the planet earth.

They have DEFINATELY lost touch with things like realistic reaction times, time framing of techniques, the effects of adrenalization, etc... The art looks like it has definately evolved OUTSIDE of a context of fighting. Many of the techniques simply defy reason.

It's really just a lot of craziness, IMO.

Even crazier than Danzan Ryu, but both would do an equally good job of getting your ass stomped in a real fight.

Shoot, I'm going to have to go to the Atemi-Ryu escrima class this Thursday and see once and for all what the deal is. Hmmmmm....

I trained with Prof Powell at a seminar in Los Angeles once...

One of the Atemi-Ryu instructors (pretty sure his first name is "Vinny"-- He is a big Italian Body Builder type) was there as well.

Although I have a Black Belt in Japanese-Hawaiian LARPing (AKA Danzan Ryu Jujitsu) I was just doing BJJ at the time of the prof.'s seminar. But I had experience in various "American " jujitsu styles on the west coast ( DZR, Budoshi, Seki Ryu)

The Prof wasn't feeling well, so he didn't do much teaching, but there were a lot of high-ranked Sanuces / Kumari Ryu(?) / Atemi Ryu people at the seminar walking around & teaching.

They were nice people, but...

But what they do is 80% complete BS; non-functional and VERY stylized. Basically, flash over function.

I don't know what "street" they think they are training for, but it is not on the planet earth.

They have DEFINATELY lost touch with things like realistic reaction times, time framing of techniques, the effects of adrenalization, etc... The art looks like it has definately evolved OUTSIDE of a context of fighting. Many of the techniques simply defy reason.

It's really just a lot of craziness, IMO.

Even crazier than Danzan Ryu, but both would do an equally good job of getting your ass stomped in a real fight.

Your comments are well thought out and you have some experience. I am very interested in the substance of your comments, namely that the art isn't what it is cracked up to be. As I said powell's reputation seems solid based on members of that community that I have run into over the years.

One of my own personal issues is that one of my teachers trained with Ronald Duncan, who has a relationship to Powell's people... I have never met Duncan and based on his videos do not want to. Yet... some of his people I have trained with are good martial artists. Frankly I cannot explain why this is and will not try.

I particularly like your comment about "stylized" techniques. I have noticed that when an art is overly stylized it loses some effetiveness. The art would rather look a certain way than just do what it is supposed to do.

You said they may have lost touch. That could be. WhatI don't like about the JuJutsu systems that use a lot of Atemi is that they sometimes encourage someone to do all these strikes while standing still (often in front of the guy). Did you notice this at the seminar? I will get **** on the boards for this but if you practice Bujinkan properly you always are moving and changing distance as you fight. I say this because some of the street effective, Atemi intensive Ju Jutsu stuff I have seen is lacking in movement and proper distancing.

I would be very interested to hear if this was your training experience at this seminar that you speak of.

I would be very interested to hear if this was your training experience at this seminar that you speak of.


In a word: Yes.

That was my experience.

The Ukes punched with stiff "karate style" reverse punches and just stood there as Tori would do a very, very fancy combination.

It was a little beyond your average compliant uke that you see in MOST TMAs.

The combos we learned actually had 7, 8, 9, moves! They just were not realistic by any stretch of the imagination. In their defense, I have seen this same tendency in most American Jiujitsu that doesn't spar; it gets more and more fanciful as it evolves outside the framework of reality provided by randori, grappling or sparring of some kind. Even so, what I saw at this seminar, took it to an extreme. It was almost a parody of jujitsu.

At the end of the seminar, they did an impromptu demo where each of the instructors/Professors would domo a technique.

As the demo went on, each instructor would try to "top" the previous instructor in terms of flash.

I don't know, maybe they were just having fun, but it got to absolutely absurd proportions where I could not even view what they were doing as Jujitsu / martial arts or combat of ANY kind. It was like" XMA jujitsu" squared.

On the good side, some of these guys were athletic and could move well. I just can't understand WHY they would do what they choose to do with their physical skills.

On top of that, they keep refering to "the street" a lot.

If one thinks it's humanly possible to get into a finger-lock off an opponent's punch (as we were actually shown at the seminar) then I guess our streets really are on different planets.


That's my take.

In a word: Yes.

That was my experience.

The Ukes punched with stiff "karate style" reverse punches and just stood there as Tori would do a very, very fancy combination.

It was a little beyond your average compliant uke that you see in MOST TMAs.

The combos we learned actually had 7, 8, 9, moves! They just were not realistic by any stretch of the imagination. In their defense, I have seen this same tendency in most American Jiujitsu that doesn't spar; it gets more and more fanciful as it evolves outside the framework of reality provided by randori, grappling or sparring of some kind. Even so, what I saw at this seminar, took it to an extreme. It was almost a parody of jujitsu.

At the end of the seminar, they did an impromptu demo where each of the instructors/Professors would domo a technique.

As the demo went on, each instructor would try to "top" the previous instructor in terms of flash.

I don't know, maybe they were just having fun, but it got to absolutely absurd proportions where I could not even view what they were doing as Jujitsu / martial arts or combat of ANY kind. It was like" XMA jujitsu" squared.

On the good side, some of these guys were athletic and could move well. I just can't understand WHY they would do what they choose to do with their physical skills.

On top of that, they keep refering to "the street" a lot.

If one thinks it's humanly possible to get into a finger-lock off an opponent's punch (as we were actually shown at the seminar) then I guess our streets really are on different planets.


That's my take.

Everything you said makes a lot of sense. Again, your reference to sylized techniques is a staple of my laundry list of problem areas in an art. Here are some things that make my BS antenia go off:

1) Overintensive Tai Sabaki: Chief culprits some Systema guys and Kung Fu guys.... any art that does not move the whole body at once can fall into this trap. You see someone tilt their whole body to the side to avoid punches as they stick a punch out while they are off balance and look like a pretzel. One has to ask, what aboiut some good old fashioned footwork that orients the body in a balanced position?

2) Stylized techniques: You hit one of my all time favorites here! Where a technique, far from being effective and done with any efficiency of movement is done with all kinds of excessive movements that tie it into some style. Most people that kick or punch in a stylized fashion cannot IMO simply hit something hard.

3) Excessive set ups to execute a technique: Bujinkan is my fav for this. Three moves to unbalance someone?

4) No Kuzushi: Some Kenpo guys do this, as well as bad grapplers. The proverbial Dante kata where you stand still and hit the guy fifty times and do not move.

5) Muscling technique: Works great until the guy is bigger and or stronger. Who needs leverage or Kuzushi when you can just rip somoenes arm are out of the socket?

6) Bad movement: Big guys do this a lot. Big clunky stepping movements instead of short explosive movements. Or jerky movement that are telegraphed.

I also think a lot of modern Ju Jutsu stuff lacks proper body movement. Depends too much on a lock, or the Atemi Waza instead of using the whole body to angle, move out of distance, or execute whole body movements.

Thats an odd evaluation. I was just sparring with some of those guys today. We goofed off a bit, and as I said, I don't like all the technique, but when we stopped drilling and started sparring, it was all live and reasonably effective. When we did RNC escapes, I really put an RNC on and made the guy escape. If it didn't work, it didn't fucking work and he tried again.

In all probability some guys are good and some guys may have strayed from the path a bit.

This is like common conundrum with krotty, tkd, aikido and kempo guys. Some of them are shitty, and some of them can beat the **** out of people.

In any case, I kept searching more on Mr. Chenique's style, and voila, I'm getting some results out of my google kata that I didn't see a year ago:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=75343#post75343

Regardless, I'm checking the escrima classes, and I'll write a follow-up. If these classes are legit (and are just around the corner of my house), then ****, I'll be a happy bunny.

Well, it would appear that there is a definite division in the evolution of the Visitation Arts.

It would seem that on one side you have David James while on the other you have Suances Ryu and Atemi-ryu. Everyone else in the Prof. Vee family falls somewhere between the extremes.

My training and experience in these arts is more toward the David James side which is balls out full resistance ABSOLUTELY NO FLASH or "Ke_po Overkill (TM)". "Get in get out" is the motto we trained by.

Now I will say that in the seminars I have attended (Soke Lil' John Davis comes to mind), I did experience some of what Spezza and DSimon are referring to, i.e., overly worked techniques that required complete compliance to even get half way through the movements. Couple that with the typical pressure point strike crap and you have the making of a completely ineffective MA.

Then you have the David James side which essentially provides that you recognize and assess the situation and YOU HIT FIRST and continue hitting until the assailant is KO'ed or you can get away. If your in the clinch you hit or utilize some of the Wally Jay'esque small circle technique or traditional JJJ locks or Kodokan Judo techs to get your self out of the situation. No flash no overkill just do the most damage in the shortest amount of time and get away. No ridge hand or shooto strikes, no strikes to heart (1) with your one knuckle punch....its not pretty, you hit first, hit hard, hit quick and get away.

So I have seen both directions that individual practitioners have "taken" their respective art from what was taught to them by Prof. Vee. Some very effective and good while others appear to be LARPtastic crap. Fortunately I trained on the full resistance/alive side as opposed to the LARPtastic crap.

Macho, go check it out and let us know.

Villian: Who are "those guys" you trained with -- it's several martial arts we are talking about; do you know which group were they from?

Obviously, like Dsimon3387 said, there is variation interms of quality -- just like ANY martial art.

GoldenJonas reminded me of somethng we did at the seminar: pressure point strikes with the knuckle of the index finger...

The first target was 2 inches above the nipple. The idea was to strike someone there with some downward pressure to make them bend over. To "straighten them back up" we learned a single knuckle strike under the chin.
Both of these moves were taught in the SAME combo, mixed in with some complex joint locks.

I believe I've got a pretty open mind when it comes to MAs, but just about every technique shown was like that; they violated ALL of the "common sense rules" about what a human being can and cannot do in a fight or even in sparring. Like I said before, it was EXTREMELY flashy stuff.


The idea that a person could apply techniques like these during an assault or in some sort of MMA is, sorry to say, completely laughable to me.

Honestly though, I can remember few specifics from that seminar --A bad sign for a seminar IMO. Nothing stuck in my head; it was just a few hours of flash and -poof- it was over. There were a couple "interesting" things and I was glad to be exposed to another styles(s) of Juitsu --which is why I went-- but I can't say I really "learned" a thing.