It makes sense that the peasants would not be allowed weapons, after that, things would get "hazy".

The far better explanation is an economic and social one for the lack of swords. First off, these were Peasants. Heck even the nobles on Okinawa were not the richest out there. Considering that metal was a prized commodity, swords and other metal weapons, were considered luxuary good. And therefore outside the price range of most folks.

Secondarily, contradicting the orientalist notions of every day being a battle between good and evil, filled with exciting duels and tea ceremonies, chances are things were more or less equal to today in terms of personal violence. As Punisher pointed out these folks were far more concerned about putting food in thier mouths than fighting wars.

- Matt

Well, virtually every Okinawan weapon has a Chinese counterpart. The only exceptions I can think of are the Eku (oar) and Tonfa, and this is probably more indicative of my lack of CMA knowledge than anything else. Nunchaku/sectional staves existed in China, and looking at pics of old Okinawan weapons, it looks like old nunchaka were actually weighted flails instead of being symmetrical. See: http://museum.hikari.us/weapons/index.html.

Patrick McCarthy's theory is that karate developed among the minor aristocracy: folks responsible for law enforcement. In the feudal era very few people were responsible for defense and policing full time, so it's plausible that martial artists would develop drills based on the everyday tools they had on hand. Looking at vids of Fujian White Crane forms, I'd have to say it looks an awful lot like some karate kata.

Okinawans did have an indigenous wrestling form that's sometimes called tegumi, though now it's awfully confused, given that tegumi is now a term for some kata bunkai and the wrestling form itself is now called "okinawan sumo," despite the fact that it doesn't resemble Japanese sumo in the slightest (contestants wear jackets, there's no Shinto component or dohyo, and victory is determined by shoulder contact).

Seikichi Uehara also claims to be the inheritor of an art called Mutubu-ryu Undunti, which he says is unrelated to karate (though it is now apparently taught along with Shian Toma' Seidokan). Reading an old JAMA article, it seems to resemble jujutsu more than karate, but with an array of Okinawan and Chinese weapons (including the sabre). Uehara is (or was; he must be at least 100 by now) an acknowledged Jo-odori (short staff dancing) performer).

According to http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/013/003/index.html
the nunchaku were originally not rice flails but rather more like a horses harness. What's your opinion of this?

Were there alot of horses on Okinawa?

Actually Japan did not have Feudal system they had what is called a Baku han system. The main differense was the peasents (nomin) were not tied to the land like the serfs of Europe. Each han was responsible for a certain koku or rice each year. If you as a farmer had enough sons to produce enouch koku for your 'tax' and to each you could allow a son to mercenary out as an ashigaru (foot soldier) to a daimyo in the hopes that he would shine and be adopted into a samurai family. The serfs in eurpoe did ot own their land and all the harvest was owned by the nobles.
I am not sure about Ryukyu (Okinawa) but once the Japanese took possession of it they would surely have forced their system of govenment on them.

Were there alot of horses on Okinawa?

I don't know.

According to http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/013/003/index.html
the nunchaku were originally not rice flails but rather more like a horses harness. What's your opinion of this?


IF a nunchaku was ever used as anything other than a weapon, then it was adapted to that and not the other way around.

I can see soemone saying that a nunchaku is a "rice fail" to a Samurai and the samurai giving them that constipated grunt, just before he cuts of their arm and shoves the nunchaku up their ass.

I don't know.

I sort of wonder myself? How would horses come to Okinawan (besides import from ships)????

History of Karate:

Phil Elmore walks down Mt. Fuji with two tablets in hand. On the first, Flashlight Kata. On the second, Pocket Stick-jitsu. The Japanese accepted their fat saviour, sacrificing virgin chickens to him.

There was a burning bush, he died, Ashida Kim brung him back. Some other stuff happened. Phil got drunk and said "Karate" when he was trying to say "Can I ride?" in response to a man walking down the street in a top hat leading an elephant.

The End.

As I said, I don't know for SURE either way as to the correct answer to the debate, since I, and nobody living presently on this planet was there when it happened.

During WWII, many of the top ranking martial arts masters were killed either during combat, or during the taking of that island by Allied forces. Also, most libraries were destroyed by some of the fiercest fighting of the war.

Physical evidence is nearly non-existant, and the history has therefore been passed down from father to son, sensei to sempai over the years. As I've stated twice, what is 100% accurate, I really don't know.

I'd like to take exception to Loredon's comment about Hohan Soken being "senile" in his later years. Again, I had never met the man, but talking to the late 10th Dan Yuichi Kuda (one of Soken's successors), 7th Dan Ron Lindsey, 5th Dan Jim Knoblett, 3rd Dan Denny Miller, and 6th Dan Greg Ohl..ALL of whom trained with O Sensei Soken in his later years, not one of them ever described him as anything but a vital and active man in his advanced years, that up until just a few years of his death, actuively taught regular classes.

Again, I get my information from others, but they are all legitimate ShorinRyu instructors with firsthand knowledge that they have passed on to me.

Peace

I am a current student of Lindsey Sensei (now 9th Dan), and have been for some years now. I originally started my traditional training in Shorinkan (Kobayashi) after doing Judo and Boxing in my childhood.

Matsumura Seito is the Shuri te style (Shorin) that has held on to the essence of Tode or Ti/Te. It's known for its weapons play, effective kata training (breaking the movements down into partner drills), grappling and emphasis on natural movement and moderate techs and stances. It emphasizes the principles of weijia and neijia (internal/external), but tends towards the gentle or soft at the yudansha level.

Being a Nidan, I can tell you that it a very effective practical karate style, and is the least Japanized of the major Shorin Ryuha. Beyond BB there is little emphasis on jiyu kumite and more emphasis on kata and oyo and kihon bunkai. Full speed and force 2-person drills are a favorite training tool, as well as the study of meridians, dian xue and strikes to vital areas. Like I mentioned before unlike the other Shuri Te styles (Shorin Ryu) it has a lot of wicked throws, locks and chokes. Our movement is based on body-change or change-body (Tai sabaki) and deals less with elementary in-and-out linear movement as you see in the schoolboy versions of karate. Its highest level form (actually a very simple kata) is the Hakutsuru, or White Crane learned by Sokon Matsumura, Hohan Soken's "grandfather", who learned it from Iwah a Shaolin Chuan Fa adept.

There has been a lot of in-fighting. Mostly because certain folks who did a seminar or two with Kise, Kuda or Soken often bribed their way to rank and now claim Soke status. Koeppel and others come to mind. The Okinawans can sometimes be prone to monetary coercion as they don't see any real value in belts, just fighting rep and skills, and many of the masters were old and needed to be compensated for years of divulging their art to strangers. Anyone can buy a BB and wear it. Additionally they are bad at organization and are usually very informal in their training methods and dojo curriculum.

The good American Seito sensei include Ron Lindsey, James Coffman, Greg Ohl, Ed Gingras, Chuck Tatum and just a few others. Even Kise doesn't teach the way he was taught and instead keeps the "secrets" of his masters' style to himself. Being a lifelong Shorin karate-ka who has done combat sport and martial sport I can tell you they all pale in scope and range to good Okinawan karate, especially Higaonna Goju Ryu, some Uechi Ryu and good Shorin Ryu.

There is a reason that journeymen, 2 year trained BBs like Joe Lewis and Bill Wallace could help formulate modern kickboxing. Many of the hand and kicking techs are just like Boxing and Muay Thai, at least they use to be or still are in some select dojo.


BTW Trias' Shuri Ryu is not only a misnomer but has relatively nothing to do with real Shuri TE. The only Shuri TE is SHORIN RYU, and the only SHORIN RYU that is mostly SHURI TE is Matsumura Seito Karatejutsu. His karate (Trias') is a hodge podge of techniques sometimes fabricated or taken from styles like Goju Ryu or Shotokan. Also when you speak of Shuri Te you are basically talking about Shorin Ryu, FYI. Additionally, Shuri Te was strictly a self-preservation and bodyguard system of fighting. Matsumura was handy with the Bo and Sai and his teachings were based on his experience as the Chief Palace Guard to 3 Okinawan kings (which included Jigen Ryu Kenjutsu the fighting style of the occupying Satsuma Samurai which he was Shihan of- it's documented). There goes part of the peasant theory. Even Higashionna ( Goju Ryu) was of the Shizoku or Samurai class on Okinawa.

Hope this adds to the discussion.

Bryan Cyr, Nidan, Kokusai Shuri Te Karate/Kobujutsu Rengo Kai

It is my current belief that ALL the masters we have names for were of the Shizoku class... The samurai-killing-peasant stories are most likely fantasy. If someone would confront a samurai it would have been a Peichin or someone even higher class.
The Chinese connection is definitive. People have posted on this, but it comes down to: There were extensive commercial and cultural exchanges with China and naturally martial arts would have been a part of it. The Shorin name. The accounts of an Okinawan boarding school in Fuzou, Fujian Province. And several of the kata having clear counterparts in chinese styles.

What else is up for revision ?!?!

The date of transmission. Politically it made the Okinawans look "better" to the Japanese if they could claim that the Chinese influence on their arts occurred several hundred or more years in the past, rather then continuing through the 1800s. In the late 1800s Japan fought a war with the Chinese, seizing present day Taiwan. The Japanese also looked down upon the Chinese because of the weakness of their central government, and how European powers were seizing territory from the Manchu dynasty. For example the Shanghai concession.

Sorry for the necro.

This is pretty well established these days as well.

For instance :

Kanryo Higashionna (1840 - 1910) the "Fist of Naha", is known as the man behind the Goju-ryu karate style. Higashionna began his training in Okinawa it was actually in China that the true seeds of Goju-ryu were planted. Higashionna went to China and studied under a man named Master Woo (Ru in Japanese) who was a practitioner of Chinese boxing. Higashionna trained under Master Woo for aproximately 15 to 20 years.

On his return to Okinawa he combined his native fighting system with the Chinese system and became the father of Naha-Te (Fist of Naha). It did not take long before his fame spread throughout the island and students started to come to him for tuition. Among them was a student named Chogun Miyagi.