Personally I have no interest in the history of traditional arts. It doesn't matter to me whether kicks were intended to knock people off horses or not.

Good luck though guys.

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El Guapo says, ""You can buy muscles, but you can't buy COJONES!"
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I was figuring that everyone would contribute what they can. For your projects, SB's ideas sound good. For the mcdojos, they can apply as well, but there is some contemporary info that is rather interesting to most of those groups, like the soards in shaolin do, dramatic stuff. I've actually lately come to the conclusion that a great number of now traditional styles probably began as money making ventures by semi talented martial artists who didn't actually have all that much new to teach, but played pretend. Then, their students spent so long believing, that they carried it on after their "masters" were gone, and probably did more with it. It just seems to be a fairly common model. I've known a few chinese who tried it nowadays, but some of the earlier korean guys beat them to it, so it's much harder to sell.

Anyway, both methods will work, and more on top of that.

FingerorMoon,

Ok...Since glaucoma medicine is hard to come by in Illinois, I had to go with the alcohol and I figured that JKD was using sarcasm. ;P FingerorMoon, he was just perpetuating certain myths that are taught throught much of the TKD world. Now I think we need to keep in mind that this idea does not have to be limited to TMA's alone, though I have a feeling that it will focus more towards that area, we can do the same thing for MMA's as well. There are a lot of people on the list that seem to know their lineage when it comes to that. I am sure they can handle questions about claims of MMA instructors.

Wastrel,

Sorry for not giving you your props concerning the taekkyon. I forgot that it was you who did bring that up several times. I believe that if you have or know some of the spots that have information on Korean arts but in the Korean language, I will bribe my wife in translating them for me and I can try to post what she tells me.

Samuel B,

Very nice idea as well. Even if we did do that it would still have to be backed up by facts which kind of leads us back to Wastrel's point that some of the docs may be in native languages that none of us speak.

Just out of curiosity what languages do most of you speak outside of English? Perhaps we can overcome the language barrier obstacle within our community. I know some really basic Tagalog and Korean and have access to people who speak fluent Korean.

Jeremy M. Talbott
http://www.koreanma.homestead.com/index.html
http://www.martialscience.homestead.com/home.html

I'm leaving that to you guys. I know english, and that's it.

However, I have useful contacts. There is a whole heck of a lot of history to be found just in the time the arts were in the us, and that info is in english. Oftentimes, contemporary events disprove ancient roots. I'll even write one up on my own art as it is practiced in the US. However, on the history, everything before a certain point is speculation, and I'll make that clear, that such and such date is how far back it can accurately be tracked to.

I actually got part of this idea from BigRod over at the ADCC forum. What I'd like to see is an in-depth discussion on the history of a particular art (such as Taekwondo) geared toward producing as legitimate a factual history as possible, free of all the bullshit, politics, and fantasy many accounts are filled with.

Everyone would collaborate and come up with an initial draft, that would be subjected to review and final analysis by the forum. The finished product would be a featured article on that particular style, and used as a reference point for people interested.

Up until now, we've discussed many of the problems in the martial arts. I feel this would be a great first step toward accomplishing our greater goals of cutting down on the fraud and bullshit in MA.

What do you guys think?


Phrost, A worthy endeavor, but an impossible dream to achieve I'm sorry to say. I've seen similar discussion's on various websites, you could practically die from boredom reading them given the length of the subjects involved.

Besides, if you want to start anywhere let us discuss the misconceived notion that certain JKD stylist's have about JKD and JKD concepts. It doesn't take a lengthy dissertation to accomplish that. Phrost, even one of your own moderators ran away one such discussion because they became embarrassed. -> Bruce Lee, JKD (http://www.bullshido.us/topic.asp?whichpage=2&TOPIC_ID=3775&FORUM_ID=2&CAT _ID=8&pollresults=0&Forum_Title=General+Discussion &Topic_Title=Bruce+Lee%2C+JKD&ReplyIDsNotFound=1&A llReplyIDs=1)

This is not to say that all your moderators perform so poorly, I have a lot of respect for Asia, though he was proven wrong in the SCARS (http://www.bullshido.us/topic.asp?whichpage=4&TOPIC_ID=3690&FORUM_ID=2&CAT _ID=8&pollresults=0&Forum_Title=General+Discussion &Topic_Title=SCARS&ReplyIDsNotFound=1&AllReplyIDs= 1) thread, he had the fortitude to stick by his guns and debate matters rationally than tuck tail and fleeing.

When people become uncomfortable with the direction and politics of the subject matter, they tend to aviod it, especially when it conflicts with their beliefs. So, you can see why I have my doubts about your goal.



Edited by - kungfoolss on June 05 2003 12:58:36

"This is not to say that all your moderators perform so poorly, I have a lot of respect for Asia, though he was proven wrong in the SCARS thread, he had the fortitude to stick by his guns and debate matters rationally than tuck tail and run."

This coming from a man who copies posts from here to hold mock debates on his own website.

"When people become uncomfortable with the direction and politics of the subject matter, they tend to aviod it, especially when it conflicts with their beliefs"

And in your case, when you can't prove them wrong on your site the poster mysteriously can no longer post on your site.

Who let KF out of his little Forum's cage?

Jeremy M. Talbott
http://www.koreanma.homestead.com/index.html
http://www.martialscience.homestead.com/home.html

This coming from a man who copies posts from here to hold mock debates on his own website.


As if I cared that KC Elbows whined at the Kung Fu magazine forum over the analysis I conducted at my own site.



And in your case, when you can't prove them wrong on your site the poster mysteriously can no longer post on your site.


Not surprisingly, you were purposely absent from the Bullshido SCARS thread. (Laughs)







Edited by - kungfoolss on June 05 2003 13:11:04

Oh yeah SCARS....wow...you mean the **** that the SEALs sponsored for 2 years and then dropped it? That SCARS...Yeah sorry..must have been because I don't give a rat's ass about it.

By the way, I still enjoy how you dance around subjects. You still didn't address the fact that you kick people off of your site because you couldn't debate them intelligently. (Laughs, Coughs, Spits, Scratches Balls)

Jeremy M. Talbott
http://www.koreanma.homestead.com/index.html
http://www.martialscience.homestead.com/home.html

Miguk!!! I SPEAK FLUENT KOREAN!!! Talk about forgetting to give props...

"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - for ever."

Analysis? KFSS copied posts from one forum, and pretended to be talking to them on his own forum. That's not called analysis. That's called craaaazy.

Anyway, detractors aside, I can name a number of difficult tasks that organized forum members on other sites have achieved, including translating works, revising works from thousands of pages of extant notes from dead authors(tolkein, for instance), and putting together histories from a vast number of sources.

We're doing this, those who believe it can be done, join in and show it being done when the time comes, and there's no time limit, so there's nothing to lose in trying.

Christ, if you don't think it can be done, what's the point in convincing others that it can't?

Oh yeah SCARS....wow...you mean the **** that the SEALs sponsored for 2 years and then dropped it? That SCARS...Yeah sorry..must have been because I don't give a rat's ass about it.


Only 2 years? Really? That's news to me. Tell us, where exactly is your documentation or proof? As for not giving a rat's ass, if you really felt this way, please explain to me the logic of why you were bothering to post at MY site in the first place. What do you think we talk about there? Moron. (Smirks)



By the way, I still enjoy how you dance around subjects. You still didn't address the fact that you kick people off of your site because you couldn't debate them intelligently


Yes, that is why I single-handedly turned around the SCARS thread at Bullshido. I don't have any power at Bullshido, and yet somehow I according to you and similar critics, I can't debate intelligently. (Smirks)

No, there Truth of the matter dullards such as yourself can't stand me upsetting the status quo. Well, I've got news for you fellows out there, if you feel this way, you probably shouldn't be here at Bullshido in the first place. You're missing the real intent of Phrost's forum. It's not to suck up to the Bullshido moderators or become part of some idiotic clique many forums are known for, but to question conventional wisdom and commonly accepted truths with the stylistic arts.

Edited by - kungfoolss on June 05 2003 14:14:09

This wouldn't be a discussion forum if everyone held the same opinion. Then again, there are few things I hold in lower regard than plagarisation. Then again, I don't want to judge anybody here.

I would be happy to help in historical research though.


How many Zen masters does it take to change a light bulb?

> Two. One to change it, and one not to change it.

I just skimmed over that thread. Sorry sparky but it seems it was TRUTH who turned that thread around. He was the lion who made the kill and you were just the hyena eating the scraps. Sorry not impressive.

You are not messing with the status quo and you are no scourge of anything. If you have a position on something then debate it and back it up with facts (which what you don't do).

"but to question conventional wisdom and commonly accepted truths with the stylistic arts."

I agree partly with this statement, but you shouldn't focus on just sylistic arts but claims from any fighting system. Truth be known your SCARS is in itself stylistic.

Jeremy M. Talbott
http://www.koreanma.homestead.com/index.html
http://www.martialscience.homestead.com/home.html

Wastrel,

I humbly apologize your kesekiness ;) (joking brother).

Jeremy M. Talbott
http://www.koreanma.homestead.com/index.html
http://www.martialscience.homestead.com/home.html

Analysis? KFSS copied posts from one forum, and pretended to be talking to them on his own forum. That's not called analysis. That's called craaaazy.


Yes, an analysis. In any event, why did you make is such a big deal at the Kung fu magazine forum if you considered it just the rants of a mentally deranged individual? Fact of the matter is that this happens to be your only counterargument to my views. "Oh he's debating with himself. Take a look at his site" You purposely never focused on the fact whether or not I was making any relevant points. A calculated political move, but it didn't work.

I have no idea why you want to make this personal, but you're not very good at it.



Anyway, detractors aside, I can name a number of difficult tasks that organized forum members on other sites have achieved, including translating works, revising works from thousands of pages of extant notes from dead authors(tolkein, for instance), and putting together histories from a vast number of sources.


As I stated previously, dry stuff.



We're doing this, those who believe it can be done, join in and show it being done when the time comes, and there's no time limit, so there's nothing to lose in trying.

Christ, if you don't think it can be done, what's the point in convincing others that it can't?


Look what happened when the Bullshido SCARS thread popped up, everybody with a bone to pick with it was getting their two bits in an attempt to slam the system, until I put my foot in the door brought the relevant points to the discussion. The pseudo-historical facts concerning it were and are still being ferried about concerning the system and its founder.

The point of the matter is, knowing historical facts and origin of a fighting style or system, won't really help on "cutting down on the fraud and bullshit in MA." What does it matter if the history you amass is accurate down to the last detail, will knowing any of it help the 99% of the TKD stylists themselves beat a MMA or BJJ?

I could be wrong, but I see only problems and no solutions at the end of such a journey.

Edited by - kungfoolss on June 05 2003 14:18:12

Kungfoolss, why not let us have our fun here, without pushing your excedingly boring SCARS agenda. We get it already. You think the SCARS style is the best. You think everything else in the martial arts world leads to perversion, murder, communism, satanic orgies, crib death, and foreigners moving in to your neighborhood.

Give it a rest.