Ok, I've started to do some research into this match and things boil down to three accounts:

1965, the Oakland Chinatown community send out a decree that Lee can no longer teach westerners. Wong is elected to be the communities representative. If Wong wins a gong sau, then Lee can no longer teach westerners.


Jack Man Wong does not belie[ve] Bruce would actually fight, and tries to delay the match. Bruce becomes angered and insists that they not wait. Wong then tries to put limitations on techniques. Bruce refuses "rules"and the two go no holds barred. Bruce begins to pound his opponent in only a couple of seconds. As Bruce is winning, Wong attemps to flee, but is caught by Bruce. Bruce begins to beat him on the ground. Students of the other teacher attempted to step in and help their teacher, James Lee, Bruce's good friend prevent this. Later he is bothered on why the fight took so long and begins to re-evaluate his style.

Various versions of this story have Lee winning within a minute. Others have the fight lasting upwards of five to ten (the reason for the reevaluation).

The second version of the story has the fight ending in a draw. This one is less publicized. A full account of it can be found here (http://www.angelfire.com/pa/99vs66/1980.html). The gyst - Lee extended the challenge to Wong. The fight lasted 20 minutes. Wong had the upper hand at numerous times but couldn't seal the deal. Wong claims that it was because Lee wouldn't admit defeat and Wong didn't want to have to escalate it to a level where he'd really have to hurt Lee.

So here's the question - what evidence (beyond anecdote) is there to support either of these positions? For example, some folks have stated that the "stop teaching westerners" thing doesn't ring true because Wong himself would teach anyone willing to pay. But is there existing evidence of Wong teaching outside the community in this time frame?

Just wondering if any folks here had any connections that were worth discussing.

- Matt

I live in Oakland, near some students of WJM. Its a Northern Shao Lin School that meets in a church gym.

http://www.kungfu.net/

Here is what they have to say about it - from their website, a 1980 article:

http://www.kungfu.net/brucelee.html

From the article:
"Only after that battle, says Wong, did he develop tremendous chi powers from the practice of Tai Chi, Hsing I, and Pakua. "

If thats any indicator.

That's the same article that I had found.

As far as the comment about the development of Chi Powers -- I take that with a grain of salt.

- Matt

I live in Oakland, near some students of WJM. Its a Northern Shao Lin School that meets in a church gym.

http://www.kungfu.net/

Here is what they have to say about it - from their website, a 1980 article:

http://www.kungfu.net/brucelee.html

From the article:
"Only after that battle, says Wong, did he develop tremendous chi powers from the practice of Tai Chi, Hsing I, and Pakua. "

If thats any indicator.

Funny how they mention Bruce Lee and "chi powers" in the same sentence without also noting that Bruce Lee dismissed such things as "hocus pocus and Chinese fairy tales", if I'm not mistaken.

Yeah. Bruce Lee sucks.

Yeah. Bruce Lee sucks.
Zombie Bruce Lee will kick your ass.

The gym in Oakland is definitely not Bullshido. They field a pretty serious sanshou team.

The gym in Oakland is definitely not Bullshido. They field a pretty serious sanshou team.

maybe so, but thier recap of events may not be entirely legit. IE: fielding sanshou teams does not lend credence to bullshit magical theories or poison touch mumbo-jumbo.

It cannot be proven, of course, that Lee’s fatal edema of the brain was caused by Jeet Kune Do, just as it could not be proven his death was brought on by any of the other rumored causes ranging from illicit drugs to excessive sex to blows on the head. Wong thinks, to serve as a caution to those who believe they can, by themselves, develop the knowledge it has taken others many generations of cumulative effort to acquire.

yes, but we'll go ahead and make that claim anyway, and while we're at it, make all manner of spurious suppositions to bolster our argument.

How can this article be taken seriously?

Ive always been a bit skeptical about Lee. Sure, he knew martial arts, but his primary role was that of an actor, not a fighter. His life is mixed with so much bullshit its hard to know what to believe.

How can this article be taken seriously?
Indeed, that quote there about JKD being possibly fatal, and the assertion that rejecting tradition is dangerous renders the article completely devoid of any credibility whatsoever. And since many of us are seeking to "develop knowledge on our own" (let's hope we don't die) I suggest that we should set aside how cool it is to disrespect Bruce Lee on the internet and reject the article as garbage.

I will assume from here on out that Mr. Lee mopped the floor with Wong, if only because that quote pissed me off. That's enough for me, as ultimately it is impossible to be certain.

good posts all

true about the EBM academy - they have successful san shou fighters and train groundfighting regularly.

Setting aside some of the mysticism of the article, I tend to believe it's account of the fight. Or at least an account where there was not a decisive victor and that the popular account "Linda Lee's" is constructed to play up the legend of Bruce Lee.

Perhaps the biggest reason for this is this fight's role in the development of JKD. Linda Lee cites this as a pivitol moment for Bruce Lee which caused him basically to tear down and reconstruct Jun Fan.

If here account is correct and he one decisively wouldn't that prove his existing principles? I mean, even if it took longer than planned, a decisive victory is still a decisive victory. The time elements could be solved by tweaking rather than wholesale reconstruction. However, if the fight was more or less a draw (as the second article suggests) that would better support the notion of going back to the drawing board.

This is the stuff of MA legend. I'm just curious about getting somewhere to a handle on a median story.

Let's step away from the Chi issues for a moment. Or does there presence negate any possibility of truth from the contrarian account?

- Matt

I am with you Matt - except for the idea that WJM didn't use his d34dly shaolin kicks because he didn't want to injure Bruce.

I am with you Matt - except for the idea that WJM didn't use his d34dly shaolin kicks because he didn't want to injure Bruce.As far as the kick part - I believe WJM probably believes that. Now what the truth is... well, you know how that one goes.

- Matt

If you can't maim a muthfucka in an underground chinatown grudge match, then when can you maim a muthafucka?!??!