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Omega Supreme
7/02/2006 12:28am,
Systema; the way not to do.
(*=legal terms used.)

So you are trapped in a room within only fifteen minutes of air left. The room is made of steel, the door is made of steel, it is air tight and the door is locked. You do not have a key, there is no window and the air is getting stale. What do you do? Unlock the door and go outside. Simple answer.

This is a riddle I present to my students. Usually the most simple minded get this easily. What does this have to do with Systema? I will get to that in a moment. A gentleman named Rich Grannon shown here http://www.systemaquestionsanswered.co.uk/ : this video was designed to show that an experienced and trained ‘cage fighter’ found value in Systema. There was only one problem with this. According to my resources Richard Grannon is not a cage fighter. He has never trained for an actual cage fight or trained with an instructor that teaches cage fighting. What Mr. Grannon has stated is that he has studied their techniques but has never seriously trained in any of them. This means nothing to most professional fighters. Studying and doing are two distinct differences. Nowhere in his biography does he mention actually cage fighting or sporting of any record but he talks ignorantly of being an expert.

Mr Grannon in his own words
“And in no way am I criticizing "No Holds Barred" training. Over the years since Ultimate Fighting Championship 1 came out (1991?), I have experimented with some of the movements with training partners and where possible have trained at various schools of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and Shootfighting. However I have personally fallen into the real fight "pitfalls" that come from this type of training.”

In the ‘youtube.com’ video he is shown doing several techniques with Paul Genge. His attacks are sloppy, predictable and look outright staged. One thing we should know from most ‘highlight videos’ is that they can lie and that we could pick apart a video all day. The important thing to state here is that Richard Grannon, at least in my opinion, is not a reliable recommendation as a ‘cage fighter’. What he represents is himself and nothing more. He could not give a reasonable explanation on why techniques did work which only went to show me that Mr. Grannon *sucks ass as a martial arts expert. Richard Grannon is nothing more than a *bullshit artist.

On the other hand I offered to step up and analyze the Systema techniques as a professional fighter and instructor. I have experience in personal security, bar security, and a few street skirmishes here and there. Members HanktheTank, Kobayashi, and Csinca have offered their resources in finding truths in Systema training. I grouped together 4 instructors spanning several disciplines to dissect the techniques shown. The instructions to these experts were to make the techniques work, understand the techniques, and break down the exercises as best we could in the short amount of time. These instructors represent Jeet Kune Do, Silat, MMA, Aikijitsu, Kali, Wing Chun, Muay Thai, SAMBO, BJJ, Taekwondo, Kenjitsu and Kung-fu; two of the instructors have fought and taught people for dog brother gatherings. We asked for one systema instructor to come and show us what systema was all about but after initial contact the instructor never returned our follow up emails. No other instructor volunteered.

The simple truth, systema is bullshit. There is no other way around it the various exercises and drills they do are nothing but a waste of time. We found no value in what they were saying or attempting to teach. The knife fighting should be dubbed, ‘how to get stabbed a lot’ or ‘how not to defend yourself against a knife’. On their own literature they state things such as:

‘Hitting somebody with your chest so hard that they fall over’ -very silly.

‘Transferring the impact of a blow right out of your body onto another person’ –main comment, who hits like that?

‘Small, subtle hits so powerful that even the bystanders feel them’ –we never got this one to work.

‘Light punches that reach the internal organs, bypassing the muscles’ – it’s called a sucker punch.

‘Phenomenal use of breathing and psychology to dispel direct blows’ – kia!

‘Unbelievable strikes that remove stress, tension, fear, make people stronger and actually heal them!” – Re read this slowly it isn’t a typo.

‘…the secrets of what makes them so devastating and simple to apply’ -we gave these techniques to advanced students. They had three days to figure them out. None of them did. So much for simple.

I would rather not go into all the techniques we went through. This is not to say none of it would work. The general consensus was why bother. All the instructors present pride themselves in gathering the most mundane of techniques, who knows how useful these techniques would be in the future, there was nothing of true value that we could find in the training methods. Now some of their strategies were interesting but what was more interesting was how Vladimir Vasiliev broke his own training theory such as relax the arms below the waist and brought them up in a guard position during the exercise. Again it may seem like I’m nit picking but I’m not. The more video we watched the worse it got.

So is systema complete rubbish? No, it is not. Systema practitioners still train hard. They learn grappling they do spar. One of the instructors actually likes their shovel techniques. They do learn valid techniques that have actually been proven. None of these techniques that I have learned, have anything to do with the wavy, internal, breathing ***** we found on the videos. As I hinted at the beginning of my report sometimes the simplest answers tend to be the best. Most of those no touch knockdowns you have seen are actually just exercises in avoidance and movement. Most of those light touches where a person gets knocked off their feet is a student being sucker punched, or reacting according to a preconditioned response, like aikidoka getting airborne from a simple wrist lock.

I have sparred two systema practitioners in my life time. Both of whom hurt themselves sparring, and after watching these videos I now know why. While I developed a huge headache, one of my instructors rolled around laughing while my students stood around with gapping mouths.

DdlR
7/02/2006 2:50am,
Omega,

thanks, it's good to see someone making a serious effort towards this sort of analysis.

Obviously I disagree with some of your assessments, and I'll be happy to discuss that if you like. In the short term, could you clarify which materials you were using towards your report? For example, did you actually study the "Questions Answered" DVD itself or just the promotional excerpt? Which of the Systema instructional DVDs were you working from?

Kungfoolss
7/02/2006 3:08am,
Systema; the way not to do.
(*=legal terms used.)

So you are trapped in a room within only fifteen minutes of air left. The room is made of steel, the door is made of steel, it is air tight and the door is locked. You do not have a key, there is no window and the air is getting stale. What do you do? Unlock the door and go outside. Simple answer.

This is a riddle I present to my students. Usually the most simple minded get this easily. What does this have to do with Systema? I will get to that in a moment. A gentleman named Rich Grannon shown here http://www.systemaquestionsanswered.co.uk/ : this video was designed to show that an experienced and trained ‘cage fighter’ found value in Systema. There was only one problem with this. According to my resources Richard Grannon is not a cage fighter. He has never trained for an actual cage fight or trained with an instructor that teaches cage fighting. What Mr. Grannon has stated is that he has studied their techniques but has never seriously trained in any of them. This means nothing to most professional fighters. Studying and doing are two distinct differences. Nowhere in his biography does he mention actually cage fighting or sporting of any record but he talks ignorantly of being an expert.

Problem I had with Rich was not his lack of credentials, but with his immaturity at Bullshido and his apparent inability to judge the validity of systema as shown in the video footage.


In the ‘youtube.com’ video he is shown doing several techniques with Paul Genge. His attacks are sloppy, predictable and look outright staged. One thing we should know from most ‘highlight videos’ is that they can lie and that we could pick apart a video all day.

Here's where I differ with you, while Rich's attacks were "sloppy," the mechanics utilized by Paul Genge were worse. Even if the students attacks were inept, that does not excuse Paul Genge from being just as bad. If anything, it should've been easier for officer Genge to deal with. Let's use a raquetball analogy, if I'm playing against an 'D' or beginner (I'm a 'B'), it's mere child's play to move with ease against the sloppy hits and returns from a beginner. The reverse is true as well, when I go against an 'A' player, their body movements are so crisp and smooth, they can tear me apart without breaking a sweat. The same truth applies to all endeavors including hand-2-hand combat. I can only conclude that Paul while he may have an inkling of instructor level knowledge within systema, by professional and instructor level standards, his understanding of body dynamics relatively poor and found wanting.


On the other hand I offered to step up and analyze the Systema techniques as a professional fighter and instructor. I have experience in personal security, bar security, and a few street skirmishes here and there. Members HanktheTank, Kobayashi, and Csinca have offered their resources in finding truths in Systema training. I grouped together 4 instructors spanning several disciplines to dissect the techniques shown. The instructions to these experts were to make the techniques work, understand the techniques, and break down the exercises as best we could in the short amount of time. These instructors represent Jeet Kune Do, Silat, MMA, Aikijitsu, Kali, Wing Chun, Muay Thai, SAMBO, BJJ, Taekwondo, Kenjitsu and Kung-fu; two of the instructors have fought and taught people for dog brother gatherings. We asked for one systema instructor to come and show us what systema was all about but after initial contact the instructor never returned our follow up emails. No other instructor volunteered.

Curious, how RobG is hell bent on meeting up with me or anybody else who has a problem with his mystical no-contact - wave his hand in front of your face and have you fall down a flight of stairs thing, but he just can’t seem to find the time to aid you with your research Omega. A lost opportunity to prove all you guys wrong.


The simple truth, systema is bullshit. There is no other way around it

What have I been saying from day one folks? Hell, if you can’t bring yourself to agree with me then you can stand beside Omega and not feel guilty about it. Oh RobG, *smirking*

the various exercises and drills they do are nothing but a waste of time. We found no value in what they were saying or attempting to teach. The knife fighting should be dubbed, ‘how to get stabbed a lot’ or ‘how not to defend yourself against a knife’.

Can anybody say, Arkadiy Stepankovskiy?


On their own literature they state things such as:

‘Hitting somebody with your chest so hard that they fall over’ -very silly.

They do? That’s a bit weird, I can’t imagine exposing my central core to an attack just so I can assault them with my chest. That’s really idiotic. Even Asia’s infamous shoulder thing is better than that.


‘Transferring the impact of a blow right out of your body onto another person’ –main comment, who hits like that?

Here’s the problem Omega. It’s a lack of comprehension of body dynamics. For some strange reason, systema believes they can react like a wing chun dummy. You hit one arm of the dummy, it then rotates on it’s axis and swings the other one against you. There’s a bit of a problem with this, if an attacker hits another human being, you will move and become unbalanced, you’re not rooted to the floor like a wing chun dummy. Any individual that doesn’t believe this is possible. Have your buddy shove you moderately hard to the left or right side of your body as you see the systema retards doing in the footage and try to rotate and hit back. You’ll see it’s virtually impossible due to simple physics. Whenever someone directs force against you, it creates a somatic response and forces you in the vector in which you were struck. Simple right? Well, what happens when you are moved and displaced from the spot in which you were struck? It has created space and distance. Meaning ladies and gentlemen, that you are now less able to strike back with any appreciable degree of penetration because you are now further away. When you couple this fact with being unbalanced and moving back and away, you then have less structural ability to deliver anything that will amount to much. That’s just very basic common and tactical sense.

When I say common sense, it’s only because I’ve been doing this sort of training for a while now. If you aren’t aware of these sciences, then it’s going to be harder for you to dissect these glaring flaws I can so easily see with in systema.


‘Small, subtle hits so powerful that even the bystanders feel them’ –we never got this one to work

That just sounds retarded, it’s not worth commenting upon.


‘Light punches that reach the internal organs, bypassing the muscles’ – it’s called a sucker punch.

I believe systema nutcases need to pick up a medical textbook as I am unaware of any internal organ that isn’t covered by muscle tissue. That is simply an asinine belief.


‘Phenomenal use of breathing and psychology to dispel direct blows’ – kia!

A very limited comprehension regarding somatic response and CNS in general. Not surprising given systema’s lack of professional standards. What’s really frightening, is when they believe this works against blades and knives. A fellow systema retard pokes his buddy in the back with a knife and he slithers out of the way as he feels it poke him. Retardation personified.


‘Unbelievable strikes that remove stress, tension, fear, make people stronger and actually heal them!” – Re read this slowly it isn’t a typo.

?


‘…the secrets of what makes them so devastating and simple to apply’ -we gave these techniques to advanced students. They had three days to figure them out. None of them did. So much for simple.

I would rather not go into all the techniques we went through. This is not to say none of it would work. The general consensus was why bother. All the instructors present pride themselves in gathering the most mundane of techniques, who knows how useful these techniques would be in the future, there was nothing of true value that we could find in the training methods. Now some of their strategies were interesting but what was more interesting was how Vladimir Vasiliev broke his own training theory such as relax the arms below the waist and brought them up in a guard position during the exercise. Again it may seem like I’m nit picking but I’m not. The more video we watched the worse it got.

Many cults are like that, if you’re not susceptible to systema brainwashing, the more you learn about their cultish behavior, the more unappealing it’s sure to become.


So is systema complete rubbish? No, it is not.

However, just enough rubbish to warrant a, ‘Danger - Keep out’ or ‘Proceed at your own risk’ sign.


Systema practitioners still train hard. They learn grappling they do spar. One of the instructors actually likes their shovel techniques. They do learn valid techniques that have actually been proven. None of these techniques that I have learned, have anything to do with the wavy, internal, breathing ***** we found on the videos. As I hinted at the beginning of my report sometimes the simplest answers tend to be the best. Most of those no touch knockdowns you have seen are actually just exercises in avoidance and movement. Most of those light touches where a person gets knocked off their feet is a student being sucker punched, or reacting according to a preconditioned response, like aikidoka getting airborne from a simple wrist lock.

I have sparred two systema practitioners in my life time. Both of whom hurt themselves sparring, and after watching these videos I now know why. While I developed a huge headache, one of my instructors rolled around laughing while my students stood around with gapping mouths.

Crap, I laugh my head off just reading DdlR spewing the daily BS he’s shoveling down every idiot that he believes is convertible. Sadly, you’ve only made his job that much harder Omega. :lol:

Kungfoolss
7/02/2006 3:12am,
Omega,

thanks, it's good to see someone making a serious effort towards this sort of analysis.

Obviously I disagree with some of your assessments,

Perhaps, if you removed your head from RobG's ass, you might see the light.


and I'll be happy to discuss that if you like. In the short term, could you clarify which materials you were using towards your report? For example, did you actually study the "Questions Answered" DVD itself or just the promotional excerpt? Which of the Systema instructional DVDs were you working from?

*Kungfoolss reads the tea leaves* It's becoming clear to me now, I see more spin and damage control in the works here.

mrblackmagic
7/02/2006 9:20am,
You're right. I'll see if Genge is willing to put up the rest of his throwdown footage on youtube.


>>>edit

Screw it.

Clyde
7/02/2006 10:39am,
Hey Omega, let him try that **** against you or me, they'd see what does or doesn't work in short order LOL.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

Neildo
7/02/2006 10:49am,
Hey Omega, let him try that **** against you or me, they'd see what does or doesn't work in short order LOL.

Awesome. Get video.

mrblackmagic
7/02/2006 11:24am,
I can see it now. Bullshidokas standing around waving :20bux:'s in there hands screaming, "didi mao, didi mao, didi mao!" Oh God, I need some sleep.

RobP
7/02/2006 12:14pm,
http://bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=35658

It is Fake
7/02/2006 12:18pm,
Yeah and what is your point?

mrblackmagic
7/02/2006 12:23pm,
I think he's saying on September 16 will be the salvation or the end of systema as we know it.

Omega Supreme
7/02/2006 12:24pm,
Omega,

thanks, it's good to see someone making a serious effort towards this sort of analysis.

Obviously I disagree with some of your assessments, and I'll be happy to discuss that if you like. In the short term, could you clarify which materials you were using towards your report? For example, did you actually study the "Questions Answered" DVD itself or just the promotional excerpt? Which of the Systema instructional DVDs were you working from?

Let's see, besides my own experiance and two of the other instructors who had direct experiance:

Knife Defence by Vladamir VAsiliev 1995
Russian Martial Art The System: [strikes] Mikail Ryabko and Vladimir VAsiliev 2003
....I've got the other 3 videos at my studio so I can't give you the title's exactly but they were self-defense, another knife, and ground work.

With all due respect to you Dldr. I won't bother to take a look at the "Questions answered" Richard Grannon is not a credible source. I won't believe anything he says. Essentially he's full of ****. I on the other hand am a MMA "Cage Fighter", and one of the other instructors does teach guys to "Cage Fight".

I shall try this in another way, the system uses a lot of silly non sense to get people to relax, and move in a specific way. It reminded us of some Aikido techniques, remember we had an Aikijitsu instructo with us, great nothing wrong with that. Some strategies, arguable will give you that. Systema claims simple to learn. Wrong. Systema claims light strikes that hit the internal organs. Wrong, they're called sucker punches on nerve clusters.

There was one exibition of breathing M. Ryabko striking a student until he caught him off breathing or struck him where he wasn't ready to take the blow. Yay, thumbs up, no secret here dude but it's nothing mystical. Mr. Grannon couldn't figure this **** out? Some expert he is.

You want credit here it is:
Mikhail Ryabko can really hit, he hits very effectively: Using the exact same principals I see in many other striking systems.
Can systema grapple: yes, not super well but better than average
Can Systema strike: the wave technique is crap but they strike
Can Systema spar: I saw 2 of my lower belts get sucker punched by the systema guy who came and sparred with us a few years ago. I busted up laughing as my senior belts tried to coach them. I was like, let him do it it's their style. If it works it works. I told the kid that's cools stuff but don't do it against an experianced guy. He called out my senior guy, a brown belt. My brown belt killed him. He then called me out, kudos to him. Long story short, he broke his hand 'whipping' it over to hit me on the head.

Can Systema guys defend hand to hand: They use typical military self-defense tactics that I've seen taught to Hong Kong Police, US Police, and UK Police. Sure why not.

Can they defend knife: It's crap, it will get you killed, I can't stress this **** enough. Nothing will convince me otherwise. I'd rather take knife defense from an ATA Taekwondo Blackbelt.

Now if it wasn't for the fact that systema likes to spout out a load of bullshit about its capabilities I would've given them a low score on the bullshido meter, maybe a 4. But since I've seen, heard, read and experianced all this **** I give it about an 8. There's no reason to brainwash you guys into believing some of these strategies, imo teach them the simple stuff first and then go into this theoretical crap. Maybe you guys do but it's still just *bullshit.

Effectiveness, again if it wasn't for all the other crap I would've rated it quite high. But you mire yourselves down with **** that really reminds me of games I give the kiddies to have fun with during class. So I give it a 4. Without the crap I would've given it a 6. Nobody ever scores a 10, there is no fool proof martial art.

Disagree with me all you want. If you do you only prove everybody right. I looked at this with neutral eyes and after the 3rd video I could barely take it anymore. We practiced for days with this stuff having students who haven't seen the videos attack us and see if we could even get minor reaction out of them. None. We had over 130 years of experiance in that room for 2 weeks on and off. Sorry, failing grade.

RobP
7/02/2006 12:25pm,
Who's stopping you going to try it? Not us.

It is Fake
7/02/2006 12:31pm,
Oh this again. He tries to conatct a systema practioner in his area. No response.

Suddenly, it is come to the UK.

That is what I thought.

mrblackmagic
7/02/2006 12:39pm,
The answer is always on the other shore. Better go ahead an book a flight on orbits.

Backdraft
7/02/2006 2:44pm,
Very cool, Omega. And damn professional too. Thank you.