I would've believed just viewing the systema footage alone would be proof enough to make an informed opinion. It's quite evident systema practitioners can't fight, though one is hard pressed to convince them otherwise. Should we really be surprised Arkadiy Stepankovskiy is dead?

Ah, reality is such a cruel taskmaster. :toothy10:

The no touch KO thing lardo does that makes the guy collapse, I could show that to anyone I know and they'd say "That's bullshit dude". I fear for the sanity of anyone who watches those clips and thinks it's real. It's bullshit.

I would've believed just viewing the systema footage alone would be proof enough to make an informed opinion.

They don't do THAT ridiculous of crap at the class here. It looks much less gay, the stuff they do, than the stuff in the videos. It still sucks, but it doesn't suck as badly.

My initial exposure, and 99% onward from there was watching these guys do their drills in class, not videos on the internet.

They don't do THAT ridiculous of crap at the class here. It looks much less gay, the stuff they do, than the stuff in the videos. It still sucks, but it doesn't suck as badly.


It looks less gay, but it's still gay. There are plenty of classes that actually do the stuff out of the clips, lol. Some of the guys that post here are featured in the videos...



My initial exposure, and 99% onward from there was watching these guys do their drills in class, not videos on the internet.

It's awesome that you actually have more experience in systema than their most fervid online crusader: DdlR. I'm glad your mind wasn't feeble enough to fall victim to their proselytism. A couple more months believing and you'd be flying over to russia for a seminar where the particpants dance around the fat russian pretending to hit him, while he punches them in their heads.

I don't think I ever would've been sucked into thinking it was anything great. I just didn't think it sucked completely...and now I do.

I kept avoiding this thread, because it is just SOOO long... And I've seen a knife-fighting systema video which really looked like a step-to-step guide on how to get chopped into steaks...
Anyway, on the very first page I found an interesting thing by Kungfools. It goes like this:
Here’s the problem... It’s a lack of comprehension of body dynamics. For some strange reason, systema believes they can react like a wing chun dummy. You hit one arm of the dummy, it then rotates on it’s axis and swings the other one against you. There’s a bit of a problem with this, if an attacker hits another human being, you will move and become unbalanced, you’re not rooted to the floor like a wing chun dummy.
For some strange reason you believe the wing chun dummy reacts like that.
I think you confused the working principles of the Muk Jan Chong with those of the turning gates of banks and shopping malls.
I might be wrong, but according to my knowledge and experience with the wooden dummy, there is no version of the dummy that would enable rotation of its parts/arms when you hit it.
Please, take a look at the construction of the dummy:
http://www.leungting.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=60&category_id=6e38cedbc4c601b4024602d60b96d6f0&option=com_phpshop&Itemid=1&lang=en
The dummy moves a few milli/centimetres in each side when hit properly, however, it does not rotate.
Claiming it does throws a dark shadow of doubt on whatever else you are claiming, Kungfools. Have you at least seen if not trained on a wooden dummy, ever?
Because in this particular case it seems to me that you are talking without a crumb of personal experience with the topics.
How can I know, if you got any regarding all the other stuff you are writing about?

Tonuzaba

There are rotating Wing Chun dummies. They are not the same. They're made specifically to rotate and, I guess, hit you if you don't block "properly" after striking.

There are rotating Wing Chun dummies. They are not the same. They're made specifically to rotate and, I guess, hit you if you don't block "properly" after striking.

So basically, _ing _un can defeat Systema?

I think so, but I don't know.

So basically, _ing _un can defeat Systema?
Only if the systema folk don't whip out their military shovel-fu.

There are rotating Wing Chun dummies. They are not the same. They're made specifically to rotate and, I guess, hit you if you don't block "properly" after striking. Well, I believe it is possible to construct such a dummy. Now that you say it, I seem to dimly remember something similar from some kind of Shaolin movie... I guess I must have cathegorized it in my brain as another nonsense legend.
There is no point in such rotation, just like Kungfools or any other sane person argues - because nobody moves like that. This equals the misconception about the purpose of the dummy in Wing Tsun - it is not to replace a human training partner. It is to train specific movements and techniques when there is no human partner...
Besides, with a rooted dummy even with rotating arms you wouldn't have to block not to get hit, it would be sufficient to step back/aside - but this is just a though coming from my attempt to find logic in the rotating-arms-dummy...
So once again, I highly doubt the rotating dummy could be named wing chun dummy.
Tonuzaba

Dammit, this mega-thread was about systema, not a wing chun super dildo with karate chop action!

Hey, OnceLost, I thought you guys were done with Systema... Are you sorry it didn't live to see a 1000 postings of pure lineage Systema or what? Come on! Admit it, there's gotta be some chun-bashing in every thread. And I serve you with just a chance for that...
Tonuzaba

I kept avoiding this thread, because it is just SOOO long... And I've seen a knife-fighting systema video which really looked like a step-to-step guide on how to get chopped into steaks...
Anyway, on the very first page I found an interesting thing by Kungfools. It goes like this:
For some strange reason you believe the wing chun dummy reacts like that.
I think you confused the working principles of the Muk Jan Chong with those of the turning gates of banks and shopping malls.
I might be wrong, but according to my knowledge and experience with the wooden dummy, there is no version of the dummy that would enable rotation of its parts/arms when you hit it.

Yes you are wrong. When I stated 'axis,' I was naturally referring to the primary axis and not the arms. And because of simple physics, while the 'arms' do move, they do not shift from their plane as they complete their rotation.


Please, take a look at the construction of the dummy:

Claiming it does throws a dark shadow of doubt on whatever else you are claiming, Kungfools. Have you at least seen if not trained on a wooden dummy, ever?
Because in this particular case it seems to me that you are talking without a crumb of personal experience with the topics.
How can I know, if you got any regarding all the other stuff you are writing about?

Tonuzaba

It's not my problem you have a learning deficiency or are wrought with arrogance. Well, seeing how you're incapable of figuring out these things for yourself, here you go ->



Spinning Wing Chun Dummy

Now USD695

http://www.kungfurock.com/images/dummy2.gif

The wooden dummy is a training tool that is often associated with the Kungfu style, especially Wing Chun. The traditional Wing Chun dummy has three specifically positioned arms, as well as one leg. Since the dummy is rigid and wooden, the student becomes skilled at covering some of the more common strike areas as well as conditions himself well. This particular dummy rotates when struck, so as to seem to strike back. The spinning wooden dummy is an excellent way to maximize your training. Must be bolted to the ground or heavy wood.

Now, don't you feel stupid?

So once again, I highly doubt the rotating dummy could be named wing chun dummy.
Tonuzaba

You're certainly opinionated from someone that's only been a member for 2-months. At the very least, try to get your facts straight.

Now, don't you feel stupid? No, actually I don't feel stupid.
You see, you posted a link to a very strange website. If sites like this form the basis of your knowledge about kung fu, I pray for you - and I am an agnostic...
http://www.kungfurock.com/TrainingTool/index.html
This site has a "wing chun" dummy with a picture of a half naked guy with gi and a black belt on doing a very twisted motion - a typical wing chunner, right? That particular dummy is supposedly good for conditioning for sticky hands. Yeah, right - you build up sensitivity for other people's motion by hitting hard wood. Sure.
Let's continue, shall we: this site is also re-selling dummys from GM Leung Ting's site. Now I hear people bitch about how Leung Ting is money-hungry and sells everything expensive. These guys have the chutzpah to offer the WT engraved sandal wood dummy for 390 USD more than www.leungting.com (http://www.leungting.com) (1100 USD vs. 710USD, you choose)!!! While claiming that the dummy was engraved by Leung Ting, probably personally. Yeah, right.
Well, this is the site where you produced information on the spinning dummy. The text you quoted from the site speaks of a traditional wing chun dummy which is rooted and this particular one, that is spinning. Even THEY differenciate between a wing chun dummy and the rotating stuff, I got it, you didn't.
Who should feel stupid now?
Besides, Leung Ting is also selling a spring-framed dummy (you'll also find it on your favourite kung fu site for 825USD vs. the 580USD on leungting.com), nevertheless the upper part has to be wall-mounted, otherwise the whole torso would move around, which would make any meaningful training almost impossible.
Any other question I could answer for you?
Tonuzaba

^^^Stupid