I don't know who you are or what you think you know..but Hank and the other systema guys didn't dominate anything. And I am sure Hank would be pissed if he knew you were on here claiming that he did. He did some rolling that day, but no stand up as he had a wedding to go to or something.
The other systema guys went up against one of our fighters and were pretty soundly beaten. We have this on video.
I suggest you go back and read the Toronto TD thread before you make claims that have no basis in fact. I was THERE ..so I know what happened

My comment was based on info others have posted in this thread. It is not new here, but I apologize to all, especially Hank, for repeating it if it was incorrect. You are right, I wasn't there and I don't have any inside info on what went down.

Still my point to Tom Kagan stands that systema people are out there. We are not hiding behind closed doors.

STFU!

Frankly, I'm glad Systema works for you. But, if you want other people to respect it, the onus is on you to SHOW IT, not me to seek out "t3h r3al" Systema. Otherwise, you are talking from a position of FAITH. And, if you don't care about what others think, then it is silly to argue that everyone else has it all wrong and it's so misunderstood. Why you get so worked up when someone points that out is beyond ridiculous.

I don't care if others respect it. I just wish they would quit the internet video circle jerk. It is tired.

I do have to point out a logical flaw in your statement above (in bold). Just because I cannot SHOW IT over the internet does not mean that I am talking from a position of faith. In fact, it is the other way around. I am talking from a position of experience, both in systema and in other styles. It is the detractors here that are talking from a position of faith, they have no experience with the style.

I don't care if others respect it. I just wish they would quit the internet video circle jerk. It is tired.

I do have to point out a logical flaw in your statement above (in bold). Just because I cannot SHOW IT over the internet does not mean that I am talking from a position of faith. In fact, it is the other way around. I am talking from a position of experience, both in systema and in other styles. It is the detractors here that are talking from a position of faith, they have no experience with the style.

Oh, you do care, Eric. Otherwise, you wouldn't bother.

Grown ups who get upset over something so near and dear to them as just being misunderstood by the kiddies is ... well ... juvenile.

And, the logical flaw is not in my comment because what you are suggesting is your word is enough to calm the critics who simply ask you to document the RESULT of the training, not the METHODS. Without the RESULTS adequately documented, your good experiences are just like the corner preacher's good experiences which invoke proselytizations of "I've seen the light! Repent now! Come join us at our church and you too will be saved!" The church doors are open, too.

However, once you discount the trolls, everyone else is just being skeptical of your belief. Skepticism is not based on FAITH. It is, in some ways, the exact opposite.


You can SHOW IT over the internet. That method is not only well established, but in use right now by your critics.

Your response to those videos (some of which were made by Systema people)? Words.

How about you point to some allegedly "good" systema video available? (In theory, the videos reviewed which started this thread were considered good by Systema people, were they not?)

Martial arts are PHYSICAL arts. Words don't cut it. If you don't like the negative feedback from videos which you yourself also believe is not showing "t3h r37l" Systema, your path on the internet should be obvious. Until then, suck it up and deal with it. The part which gets tired is not the kiddies with the bathroom humor; that barely registers as background noise to most parents. I doubt you would notice it if you had adequate PROOF to show them over the internet. It should be that simple, right?

Tom,

I believe that you and I have had this discussion before ...

Regarding video evidence of results vs. methods; Systema is specifically a self defense training method, not a competitive sport.

It's easy to get videos of the results of "t3h r37l" BJJ or boxing training because the proving ground for those sports is on the mat, or in the ring. Fight dates are set and advertized in advance and the fights are often televised or privately recorded for broadcast over the Net.

The proving ground for "t3h r37l" Systema is spontaneous, no-holds-barred combat; a street assault or similar. As I've pointed out before, the odds against a Systema practitioner being attacked in the street and the result being recorded and broadcast are astronomical, which is why we're largely left with video clips of training methods rather than results.

The only exceptions I'm aware of are:

1) The police camera video clips of Systema-based takedowns featured on the Strategos International site, which have already been discussed at some length here. The objection then was that these takedowns were not unique to Systema and the rejoinder was that there was no claim as to "uniqueness". People asked for video proof of Systema being applied outside a training environment, and there it was.

2) A very short clip from a Russian security camera video that was floating around the Net years ago, which showed a high-ranking Systema practitioner knocking down an aggressive shoplifter with one evidently devastating punch.

Tom,

I believe that you and I have had this discussion before ...

Regarding video evidence of results vs. methods; Systema is specifically a self defense training method, not a competitive sport.

It's easy to get videos of the results of "t3h r37l" BJJ or boxing training because the proving ground for those sports is on the mat, or in the ring. Fight dates are set and advertized in advance and the fights are often televised or privately recorded for broadcast over the Net.

The proving ground for "t3h r37l" Systema is spontaneous, no-holds-barred combat; a street assault or similar. As I've pointed out before, the odds against a Systema practitioner being attacked in the street and the result being recorded and broadcast are astronomical, which is why we're largely left with video clips of training methods rather than results.

The only exceptions I'm aware of are:

1) The police camera video clips of Systema-based takedowns featured on the Strategos International site, which have already been discussed at some length here. The objection then was that these takedowns were not unique to Systema and the rejoinder was that there was no claim as to "uniqueness". People asked for video proof of Systema being applied outside a training environment, and there it was.

2) A very short clip from a Russian security camera video that was floating around the Net years ago, which showed a high-ranking Systema practitioner knocking down an aggressive shoplifter with one evidently devastating punch.


Riddle me this: If the constant stream of boxing RESULTS suddenly slowed to a trickle, what would a skeptic start wondering about boxing's METHODS of training?


DdlR,

Going right back to the question: "Why bother?" One would hope the simple reason would be "to help you fight better". Well, what proof do you have? Thus far, it's just a bunch of words and explanations, with only a smidgen of RESULT. In other words, what is given in response is of the type of videos which prompted this thread in the first place. Sorry, THIS IS NOT ENOUGH with the internet as the medium. A skeptic demands more evidence of RESULT.

If your METHODS preclude you from providing adequate proof of RESULTS in a acceptable form on the internet, it's time to shut the **** up about your METHODS and let the hands do more talking. Regardless, more "no no no it's not really like that/taken out of context/one small part /bad makeup and lighting/trolls trolls all of you!" only shows more failure of test #3.

Regardless of your ability to bury information within sophistry (:smile:), you seem to be one of the few who simply shrugs their shoulders and accepts the fact that, without proper documentation of RESULTS, there is no way to adequately prove the METHODS are effective. If memory serves, even you agreed a couple of random altercations with scrubs is not adequate proof.

Adequate and systematic proof demands leveling the playing field and controlling variables during testing (Gee, if only there were public venues for this. :rolleyes:). Without this, the "I've seen the light!" arguments are inherently about FAITH. Invariably, when this is pointed out, it pisses off the "robots" who cry "Infidel!" because someone dares question their god. But pointing this out shouldn't piss off a reasonable person. This issue is hardly unique to Systema ... or MA.

Tom,

in that case, the results/methods issue simply dissolves into a catch-22 that shall probably never be resolved to anyone's satisfaction.

The only way I can think of for Systema people to provide the kind of proof you're looking for would be for them to grab a friend and a camera and hit the streets looking for trouble (Systema "happy slapping", perhaps?). I believe, and certainly hope, that this will never happen.

Anything less than that - throwdowns, etc. - will not satisfy either side of the debate. If skeptics asserted that the rules were "close enough" to reality that it allowed them to draw their own conclusions, the Systema people could justifiably respond that, regardless of the results, the rules of the contest still restricted them from applying "t43 r34I" Systema.

Further, at the practical level, this is exactly what Systema people keep saying; that their methods (sparring exercises, etc.) are close enough to reality that it allows them to draw their own conclusions. On that basis, all the skeptics can do is criticise the Systema methods, apparently taking it on faith that these methods would not produce satisfactory results.

This is taking as read the more fundamental points that Systema has never been promoted as a competition style and that "sport Systema" would be redundant anyway, given that Systema was drawn from the same matrix as Sambo wrestling but specifically geared away from competition and towards self defense.

I honestly doubt that anyone who wanted to compete in tournament-style competition would have much interest in the Systema curriculum, which includes so many exercises that are irrelevant to combat sport training (multiple attackers, weapons, etc.)



Adequate and systematic proof demands leveling the playing field and controlling variables during testing (Gee, if only there were public venues for this. ).

You made the same point last time we talked about this, and I still don't know what you're hinting at. I had assumed that you were talking about a MMA or throwdown environment (see above). If not, and assuming that you're not seriously suggesting that Systema people should deliberately provoke and record streetfights to "prove" the results of their training online, then what are you talking about?

Itz to dedly 4 compatision! It only werx on teh streatz!@!

It's always amusing to see the classics are still being employed.

Itz to dedly 4 compatision! It only werx on teh streatz!@!

It's always amusing to see the classics are still being employed.

It's a cliche because it's true. Point me towards any form of legal combat sport that has no rules.

I didn't read through 99% of the pages, but I don't see how you can support Systema over learning a combat sport like MMA. In all the conflicts I've been involved in, I've either been taken down by a wild tackle, punched people, been punched in the face, stabbed, and kicked while I was on the floor.

Assuming it's the 1st, then all you need is a base in any decent martial art to know what to do. Assuming it is the 2nd or 3rd, and I am fighting someone one on one, I would do better as a Boxer than as a Systema practicioner. Assuming the person has a knife, I'd do better by running the **** away. Assuming there were multiple attackers, I'd be fucked regardless, and if you can beat up 3 guys through your knowledge of Systema than chances are you could of beat them up regardless because they are a bunch of pussies.

I don't see what you can use that would be against the rules in say an earlier UFC fight, that you'd need to learn from someone teaching Systema. Things like fish hooks, eye gouges, nut kicks, and other dirty things not allowed in a legal combat sport, do not need to be taught.

IDK why anyone even trains to fight on the streets, if you fight on the streets often chances are you know how to fight, and will learn through experience. When I was 17 and had been doing Muay Thai and wrestling for like 9 years, I got my **** handed to me by my friend's drunk 42 year old dad who was my size and had been to jail like 10 times.

Btw, you referenced a high ranking Systema practiotioner devastatingly punching someone in the face. What makes their punch special, don't tell me ki :[.

If you had read through the preceeding pages you'd be much better equipped to join the discussion now, but briefly;

I am not supporting Systema over any combat sport, I'm explaining why Systema is not a combat sport, and why people who want to compete in combat sports are unlikely to be attracted to Systema.

No, "ki" is not a part of Systema - it was just a very hard, fast and accurate punch. I mentioned it because, apart from the police video footage, it's the only example I know of that shows Systema "results" in a spontaneous, real-life conflict situation.

This thread is too long. 'We believe we can defend ourselves despite generally losing sports bouts to combat sports practitioners' is a topic covered in Bullshido FAQs IIRC. There's no need to argue it again here.

This thread is too long. 'We believe we can defend ourselves despite generally losing sports bouts to combat sports practitioners' is a topic covered in Bullshido FAQs IIRC. There's no need to argue it again here.

Yes, but there are no rules on teh streat. If the systema student was allowed to use moves that fall outside the ruleset of combat sports, such as monkey plucks the peaches and the turkish oil check, the bouts would have ended differently. :laughing8

Sigh... (stifles yawn)... please, for the sake of all our sanity just let the thread die..........

Further, at the practical level, this is exactly what Systema people keep saying; that their methods (sparring exercises, etc.) are close enough to reality that it allows them to draw their own conclusions. On that basis, all the skeptics can do is criticise the Systema methods, apparently taking it on faith that these methods would not produce satisfactory results.


Just because Systema chooses not to provide adequate documentation of RESULTS does not mean it's ****. However, if all Systema chooses to document is METHODS, there is no way in hell a reasonable person could expect to provide a non-faith based answer the question of "why bother" when so many other METHODS cowboy up and document their RESULTS.


Regardless, if the METHODS were "close enough", recording such sessions should be simple. Additionally, I contend they would look very different than many of the Systema videos produced thus far, thus they cannot be "close enough".

It is not the skeptic who takes it on faith they wouldn't work (that's the trolls who enjoy provoking such elequent sophistry displayed in this thread.) Regardless of a practitioner's personal "experiences" which convince them it's the best thing since sliced bread, the FAITH is that Systema, for whatever reason, chooses not to open up even the "close enough" parts of their training to peer review. You expect everyone to take it on FAITH the numerous METHODS shown produce consistent and repeatable RESULTS.


Boxing: speed bag + mitt work + rope jumping + shadowboxing + heavy bag + shadow sparring + (whole bunch of stuff not listed) produces RESULTS like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWQlbOkKCD0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6rOUlEcMiI

and RESULTS like this:

http://members.cox.net/trapboxer/alivsterrel.gif


Systema: Suckerpunching + Jelly roll slipping + odd knife work + Sambo-ish grappling + (whole bunch of stuff not listed) + (whole bunch of secrets which cannot be filmed) produces RESULTS like this:

...(*crickets*)

...anecdotes

...stories and legends of prowess.

And then you get:

... uh ... er ... hmmm ... Many of those METHODS look strange. Other METHODS can document their RESULTS. Heck, even other specific RBSD groups have done their best to document some semblance of RESULTS. Why should someone bother with your METHODS? Perhaps they are bored and/or want to take a leap of FAITH?



Why is this reality seemingly so hard for many Systema practitioners to accept? Pride or something? Heck, according to some, even your own Supreme Allied Commander has made mention of taking this on FAITH.

It's a cliche because it's true. Point me towards any form of legal combat sport that has no rules.


United States occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan.


Guess how the U.S. are training their troops as of late. (Hint: Arts which cannot show adequate documentation of their RESULTS - even within a limited context of their cacoon of training with rules - need not apply).

Sigh... (stifles yawn)... please, for the sake of all our sanity just let the thread die..........
Take a look at this clip of the porcine palooka:
http://www.russianmartialart.com/catalog/video/clips/New-York.wmv

Towards the end of the clip, the guy in the yellow shirt has a perfect shot at the back of the colossal cossack's head; instead of striking he just taps him gently then walks about until he receives a punch in the face. Why did he not take the opportunity to strike the rotund ruskie? I think he didn't want his systema fantasy to come to an end - just like you want an end to this thread so you can continue to delude yourself. Pathetic. The fact that we are still discussing whether or not systema is for real after however many hundred posts demonstrates that it sucks. All you have is anecdotal evidence to the contrary. Prove it doesn't suck, or join us in laughing at the idiots who believe this bollocks.