omega,


We can internet grapple all day. I tried it once with Aesop I believe but I misunderstood the movement he was trying, it doesn't work very well. Let 9chambers get on the floor with some experianced grapplers and drop that issue, we could be here for centuries typing away at this and that.

Forever the voice of reason.

Firebrand,


The problem with preferring the mount is that if your buckling fails (which it likely will if you are up against someone with significant JJ experience (esp if he is 50 pounds heaveir) you are in trouble.

I'd also be in trouble in the guard with an experienced grappler who has 50 pounds on me.


However, I do think you need to gain some proficiency at the guard before you are qualified to truly comment on it (watching TUF3 does not count).

I will do my best. Thank you.


I also doubt that a sanctioned JJ compeition is a good place to test your theory considering the penalties for allowing yourself to be mounted.

True.

I like all you guys. I'll be experimenting and training and I'll let you know what happens. Thanks. Right now, I've got to get some drawings done so I can make some money.

I really don't mean to sound like an asshole, but consider the amount of sweeps and attacks from guard vs. reversals and "attacks" (good luck finding the last) from under mount..

9chambers I think you should stop. I know absolutely nothing about BJJ but I could tell this isn't going too well. The first part of the thread was good when you demonstrated that BJJ isn't the end all of grappling arts.

But you see you've just done it there. You start off saying BJJ but in general you mean grappling.


Actually no. You didn't follow my comment:


This thread is actually a great example of why advocating bjj (if the school also works no-gi and mma) is actually correct.
...
Because, [important stuff about grappling]
...

This most commonly will be found in a bjj school.
Further, when it comes to grappling as relevant to mma your most common choice, and in many areas the only choice, is going to be bjj.

Hopefully Karo will continue to do well and inspire judoka to move part of their focus to that arena as well. That would in fact be great since judo is generally far more commonly available.

"attacks" (good luck finding the last) from under mount..
When you are mounted, place your hands on their hips, your elbows in your midsection and bridge up explosively (or "buck" in 9chambers speak) droping back down on one side while holding them up with your forearms and bringing one knee between their legs, then wrap your other leg around their hip and push your foot into their midsection and kick them away from you. By now their foot should be under your arm pit so you can lean over and scoop up their heel and heelhook FTW.

Despite me learning this from my BJJ teacher, by 9chambers logic since it doesn't involve the guard or position before submission it must actually be sambo or catch wrestling,

There is an elevator escape->feet in armpits->escape out backdoor-> toe hold I used to enjoy doing.
I guess in bizarro world that's an attack from undermount. Too bad it only works on people I have a significant skill disparity with.

Further, when it comes to grappling as relevant to mma your most common choice, and in many areas the only choice, is going to be bjj..

Because of the narrow view of BJJers.
Now to prove a point by using your own words against you.




It is a fact (whether exaggerated or not I don't know) that much of mma instruction is going to be tied in some way to bjj, even if other influences are equally strong. If anything the fault lays with those who did not encourage the development of realistic fighting events more widely and more broadly earlier on.



EDIT: This thread is actually a great example of why advocating bjj (if the school also works no-gi and mma) is actually correct. The idiocy of the OP currently on display shows the need for quality grappling instruction and an understanding of a positional hierarchy. This most commonly will be found in a bjj school.

There you go, you went from BJJ to grappling back to BJJ. I already shot you down about BJJ understanding the positional hierarchy. They understand position over submission not positional hierarchy because they're willing to put themselves in bad position. Top is always best even if you're in the guard especially in MMA. Old school BJJ schools didn't demonstrate this. It took other grapplers to show them the era of their ways. Now those grappling arts have to take a back seat to the ignorant fucks that believe bjj this and bjj that. You've been doing actual grappling for what, 3 years now? I have nearly 30 years experiance.

I'll just start referiing to you guys as Judoka and be done with it.

I already shot you down about BJJ understanding the positional hierarchy. They understand position over submission not positional hierarchy because they're willing to put themselves in bad position. Top is always best even if you're in the guard especially in MMA. Old school BJJ schools didn't demonstrate this. It took other grapplers to show them the era of their ways.
I think you are missing the point of BJJ, which is making the best out of a bad situation. Yes, it sucks to be on your back getting pounded. But once you are invariably put there, guard is by far the the best place to be.

I think we can all agree that tying somebody up in a closed guard and stalling is only effective in Grappling "point-sparring" competitions or UFC style MMA with the quick-standup rules. This is the guard being lame.

HoweverIf you perfect your guard, it is very powerful. Both of my BJJ black belt instructors set an excelent example of this in their KOTC fights. One of them elbowed a guy in his guard opening up an artery in his forehead squirting blood everywhere in the bloodiest fight I've ever seen. The other one took the welterweight champion belt with a triangle choke from the guard. This is the guard being deadly.

If the guys one grapples with don't use the guard effectively, they're going to be in big trouble when they end up in a skilled BJJ fighter's guard. A well rounded figher will know how use the guard and pass the guard.

I think you are missing the point of BJJ, which is making the best out of a bad situation. Yes, it sucks to be on your back getting pounded. But once you are invariably put there, guard is by far the the best place to be.

I think we can all agree that tying somebody up in a closed guard and stalling is only effective in Grappling "point-sparring" competitions or UFC style MMA with the quick-standup rules. This is the guard being lame.

HoweverIf you perfect your guard, it is very powerful. Both of my BJJ black belt instructors set an excelent example of this in their KOTC fights. One of them elbowed a guy in his guard opening up an artery in his forehead squirting blood everywhere in the bloodiest fight I've ever seen. The other one took the welterweight champion belt with a triangle choke from the guard. This is the guard being deadly.

If the guys one grapples with don't use the guard effectively, they're going to be in big trouble when they end up in a skilled BJJ fighter's guard. A well rounded figher will know how use the guard and pass the guard.

No, I think you guys are missing the point. We're arguing positional heirarchy not geting used to fighting from a bad position. I have not said once that the guard isn't a viable position but when I have guys voluntarily jumping to their back without knowing what kind of game I can play or what they are capable of then positional heirarchy isn't a valid arguement. Positional heirarchy =/= Position over submission, which is a main staple of the BJJ philosophy. One that I'd admit most other grappling systems learned from BJJ or were at least influenced by it. Positional Heirarchy is a staple of Japanese Judo, SAMBO, and wrestling. I'm sorry that you Brazillian Judoka guys can't seem to admit to this.

Oh no you didn't just called them Judoka.

Oh no you didn't just called them Judoka.

Well it's either that or kareteka:deadhorse

I admit there are too many BJJ guys who think its God. It definatley isnt. What it is, is a good submission wrestling system that emphasises position over submission. It also had a novel approach to fighting off of your back, which was practiced by other arts before, but not to the extent as to which it was developed in BJJ.

BJJ guys are also arrogant because they often do not give credit to Wrestling, Judo or other grappling styles. The big thing BJJ did was introduce submissions to the masses alla UFC. It was a good thing. Most people now however see that there are still flaws in the holy grail of grappling.

They dont like to do leg locks. They also like to play in gaurd alot. Alot of poeple seem to like gaurd who are pure BJJ and thats ok. But it is always better to be on top. I have a Gracie book, Mastering JiuJitsu. In it Gracie says himself that the gaurd is NOT an advantage. It is a defenseive position that is better then being mounted. Its a "OMG I just got KO and am lying on the floor dazed! O **** here he comes!" Thats it. He even said that the top guy has a slight advantage because he can punch, submitt or walk away and kick.

Jesus fucking Christ the last few pages of this thread are painful to read.

I'll just start referiing to you guys as Judoka and be done with it.

Then hopefully my throws will improve :wav:

There you go, you went from BJJ to grappling back to BJJ.
Are you deliberately misunderstanding what I'm writing?

I said: For MMA you require quality grappling instruction.
Then in response to 9Chamber's absolutely absurd comments I said something that boils down to: Your wrestling didn't apparently teach you MMA relevant grappling. Too bad you didn't just go to that bjj school you've been talking about for years, you'd already be disabused of all your nonesense. Or have quit.
Continued with: You need quality grappling instruction (as applicable to MMA), which most commonly will be found in bjj (plus some stuff about hoping Karo's success encourages more judoka to shift their focus since judo remains more common than bjj).


I already shot you down about BJJ understanding the positional hierarchy. They understand position over submission not positional hierarchy because they're willing to put themselves in bad position. Top is always best even if you're in the guard especially in MMA. Old school BJJ schools didn't demonstrate this.
I'm not sure that was even me, and I don't know about "old school" but it is explicit in Rolls' point structure.


It took other grapplers to show them the era of their ways. Now those grappling arts have to take a back seat to the ignorant fucks that believe bjj this and bjj that.For most of the "R" Gracies, sure I'll defer to you on that. From my understanding (and I don't really give a **** about any of this historical crap) is that Carlson always advocated top.


You've been doing actual grappling for what, 3 years now? I have nearly 30 years experiance.What's your point? I haven't been arguing with you on either historical or technical points.
Hell, I don't even know what we're arguing about. As far as I can tell the most controversial comment I've made is that MMA applicable grappling is going to be more commonly found (besides in an MMA gym) at a bjj school.
In your quote which you claim makes me contradict myself I merely say that "this will most commonly be found in a bjj school".

Is that what you disagree with? Because I seriously have no idea what has your panties in a twist.

Are you deliberately misunderstanding what I'm writing?

I said: For MMA you require quality grappling instruction.
Then in response to 9Chamber's absolutely absurd comments I said something that boils down to: Your wrestling didn't apparently teach you MMA relevant grappling. Too bad you didn't just go to that bjj school you've been talking about for years, you'd already be disabused of all your nonesense. Or have quit.
Continued with: You need quality grappling instruction (as applicable to MMA), which most commonly will be found in bjj (plus some stuff about hoping Karo's success encourages more judoka to shift their focus since judo remains more common than bjj).


I'm not sure that was even me, and I don't know about "old school" but it is explicit in Rolls' point structure.

For most of the "R" Gracies, sure I'll defer to you on that. From my understanding (and I don't really give a **** about any of this historical crap) is that Carlson always advocated top.

What's your point? I haven't been arguing with you on either historical or technical points.
Hell, I don't even know what we're arguing about. As far as I can tell the most controversial comment I've made is that MMA applicable grappling is going to be more commonly found (besides in an MMA gym) at a bjj school.
In your quote which you claim makes me contradict myself I merely say that "this will most commonly be found in a bjj school".

Is that what you disagree with? Because I seriously have no idea what has your panties in a twist.

The simple fact that I have highlighted, italicized, and bolded you're own fucking quote boggles my mind.


bjj see here...this is where you mention BJJ
....(if the school also works no-gi and mma) is actually correct. The idiocy of the OP currently on display shows the need for quality grappling instruction ...now here you are you don't say BJJ you say grappling instruction...see graaaaaaaapling....not BJJ instruction, but grrrrraaaaappling instruction....

and an understanding of a positional hierarchy. This most commonly will be found in a bjj school. Ew, there you go back to BJJ....

Now as per that last quote, BJJ does not advocate a positional hierarchy, like I've stated for the 4 th fucking time. Even another BJJ artist just told you that. It teaches you how to fight from any position and to secure a dominant position rather than give it up for a submission attempt.