Talking to some BJJ addicts, they said BJJ is judo before it was modified for faster bouts at the Olympics. Can anybody add to this?

Yes, they're wrong.

Yes, they're wrong.
Ditto

You should have registered as "viadoshi".

And the ignorant should answer. All three of you are fucktards. The original set that was taught to the Gracie Family was taught by old school Judo standards. Most of these techniques empahsized as much ground work as it did throwing. Two schools of thought branched out from this most notably the influence Helio Gracie brought in because of his lack of sheer size and strength. So you'll see two different mind sets of BJJ although they've influenced each other. The Gracie brand which was spawned by Carlos Gracie and the Gracie brand that was influenced most notably by Helio Gracie. These days they're almost indestinguishable (spell check please) because of all the information available out there and all the cross training going on between the different systems.

This is what some people would like to express as "BJJ is just pre WWII Judo" where you saw more ground fighting etc. Many sport JJJ systems often display an extreme BJJ look although not as passive and this is sometimes is contributed to Kano's influence in JJJ which was later coined as Judo.

As you can see most BJJ guys take insult to this. Since my information was from a more direct source the the rest of you can sit and spin, I'll believe a Machado Black Belt over the three of you any day of the week.

*edit.... oops didn't mean to include you in that branch Aesop.

Talking to some BJJ addicts, they said BJJ is judo before it was modified for faster bouts at the Olympics. Can anybody add to this?
They are right. At its inception BJJ was "Old school" Judo and some Tenshin Shinyo Ryu JJ. Honestly it was incompete Judo and TSR but thats not necesarily a bad thing over the years BJJ has morphed into its own animal and stands on its own merits.

I think the ippon (win by a clean throw) was there from day one in judo.
I don't think there ever was ippon in BJJ.
And that dictates a different approach, different philosophy and different techs.

Anyway it is a silly comparison, particularly since BJJ today is not what it was 10, 20, 50 years ago.

Tomas

And the ignorant should answer.
Ironic



All three of you are fucktards. The original set that was taught to the Gracie Family was taught by old school Judo standards. Most of these techniques empahsized as much ground work as it did throwing.Two schools of thought branched out from this most notably the influence Helio Gracie brought in because of his lack of sheer size and strength. So you'll see two different mind sets of BJJ although they've influenced each other. The Gracie brand which was spawned by Carlos Gracie and the Gracie brand that was influenced most notably by Helio Gracie. These days they're almost indestinguishable (spell check please) because of all the information available out there and all the cross training going on between the different systems.

This is what some people would like to express as "BJJ is just pre WWII Judo" where you saw more ground fighting etc. Many sport JJJ systems often display an extreme BJJ look although not as passive and this is sometimes is contributed to Kano's influence in JJJ which was later coined as Judo.


Not really. I say this based on multiple pre-war judo references on my shelf (I can give you the citations). In those books, some that address the teaching methods of the Kodokan, throwing is primary. Nage-no-kata and the Gokyo are the basis of teaching; the Katame-no-kata comes later.

What I've seen of BJJ appears to be based almost entirely on Katame-no-kata and related techinques. The other "sets" have been dropped.

Now, you could be correct in saying that the original set emphasized as much ground work as throwing - the Randori-no-kata (the popular name for Nage-no-kata and Katame-no-kata combined) includes 15 throws and 15 ne-waza.

But Katame includes all the key matwork techniques, while Nage consists of mostly forward throws (that is, uke goes forward - yoko-gake, uke falls backward, and sideways in okuri-ashi-barai) - the Gokyo greatly expands on these basics, not so much on the ne-waza. (Note that I tend use the term Gokyo to cover named techniques not covered in kata, not a precise usage, but one that suits my purposes).

As far as I can tell, the "sets" of Kodokan judo are taught pretty much as they have been since the 1880's; the Gokyo was reformulated in the late 1890's, and a new set was added in the 60's. The only "lost" set, the Go-no-kata, seems to have emphasized power throwing techniques, not ne-waza.

I see no evidence, from the literature, that there has been any signficant change in judo, pre-war to post-war, other than the changes in scoring. It's evolved, but the basic philosphy and focus is pretty much the same.



As you can see most BJJ guys take insult to this. Since my information was from a more direct source the the rest of you can sit and spin, I'll believe a Machado Black Belt over the three of you any day of the week.

*edit.... oops didn't mean to include you in that branch Aesop.

I wouldn't assume that a Machada Black Belt is a competent judo historian. Cdronin, on the other hand, from what I've read online, appears to have a judo library at least as large as my own.

Technique as related to BJJ, maybe not, but I'd listen to what he says about history.

I wouldn't assume that a Machada Black Belt is a competent judo historian. Cdronin, on the other hand, from what I've read online, appears to have a judo library at least as large as my own.

Technique as related to BJJ, maybe not, but I'd listen to what he says about history.

Thanks for the props Dakota. I won't comment much on BJJ tecnique, as I have LIMITED experience in it(not that that seems to stop others from commenting).
I will pull some references out on the weekend and expand on my comment.

"Mastering JuJitsu" by Renzo Gracie and John Danaher covers this subject the best I've seen.

They are right. At its inception BJJ was "Old school" Judo and some Tenshin Shinyo Ryu JJ. Honestly it was incompete Judo and TSR but thats not necesarily a bad thing over the years BJJ has morphed into its own animal and stands on its own merits.

Your description could also be used to describe the early British martial arts scene, more emphasis on the Tenshin-ryu.Nobody is mistaking Neil Adams for a "zu zitzu" master. Could it be Helio's incomplete understanding of the techniques(based on watching classes, not"feeling" them ), combined with him being a natural prodigy that would be the beginning of Brazillian jiu jitsu history and the start of the differences between BJJ and Kodokan judo?

I can give you the citations

Learning is a good thing, but more often it leads to mistakes. It is like the admonition of the priest Konan. It is worthwhile just looking at the deeds of accomplished persons for the purpose of knowing our own insufficiences. But often this does not happen. For the most part, we admire our own opinions and become fond of arguing.

from Hagakure, Yamamoto Tsunetomo

To be clear, you would have to say that the original BJJ is the original judo. Current BJJ and current Judo have gone a way in different directions from themselves and each other.

The current BJJ is a far more technical beast and has many innovations in terms of brand new techniques. Judo innovations tend to be on new applications of existing tecniques.

But then - we all knew this all along, regardless of what we say.

Talking to some BJJ addicts, they said BJJ is judo before it was modified for faster bouts at the Olympics. Can anybody add to this?


Stupid and entirely irrelevant. That's like saying Japanese JuJitsu is the original Judo.

Who gives a damn?

BJJ has changed and is still changing. You can't pin it down and say it's like X or Y.
It is based mostly on Judo and Jiujitsu (with emphasis on groundwork and Maeda's techniques, which were more Jiujitsu than Judo), so obviously it will be similar.

Your description could also be used to describe the early British martial arts scene, more emphasis on the Tenshin-ryu.
That was a simplified description.


ould it be Helio's incomplete understanding of the techniques(based on watching classes, not"feeling" them ), combined with him being a natural prodigy that would be the beginning of Brazillian jiu jitsu history and the start of the differences between BJJ and Kodokan judo?

Helio a prodigy? I wouldn't say that. By all accounts pple contrast Carlos and Helio saying that Carlos was more aggressive and atheletic while Helio was smaller, frailer, and sicklier (in his youth). But I don't think itw was Helios incomplete understanding of technique moreso that he took them and made the work for him.