I'm really only talking about striking, once you move into grappling range then the game is differant.. Though, personally, i tend to intiate all my grappling from the plum clinch., making my grappling tie in nicely with my Boxing/Thai boxing for MMA use.

As I know **** all about kung fu, I'm bowing out of this discussion. I can't repeatedly get into the wall of "well in kickboxing maybe... but in bagua the world is flat" and continue a discussion. Have fun guys.h

Yeah...that's why I was trying real hard not to pull that card. I knew it would shut down the conversation. I was even hoping to avoid using the word "bagua" altogether in the hopes that I could just discuss the ideas on their own merits. Sorry someone had to do that to you. I think it's worth filtering out the "well in this style...." comments as best you can and see if there's anything there.

A better version of the same exchange you just had with Deep Blue Halo is Dale's response to Anna's restatement of your basic question. I also like Anna's further response as it keeps it out of some kind of dumb CMA/Muay Thai pissing contest.


I'm really only talking about striking, once you move into grappling range then the game is differant.. Though, personally, i tend to intiate all my grappling from the plum clinch., making my grappling tie in nicely with my Boxing/Thai boxing for MMA use.

Really...traditionally the stuff Dale and I are talking about is intended for that. It's much closer to MMA than to boxing. No groundwork, sure. But there is not supposed to be a clear distinction between grappling and striking. ALL traditional Chinese stuff is SUPPOSED to be done with standing grappling in mind. Not all are concentrated on throwing but it is assumed that the other guy may be and that grabbing and grapevining and standing chokes and small joint manipulation and all that stuff is part of the game.

So for example, boxing footwork may have a blind spot for "go-behinds". How would you shoot in for a suplex? In a boxing match, if you actually manage to take someone's back...is there anything legal you can do from there? Now if you are allowed to throw on a standing RNC or heck, even jump into rear mount, then the payoff is bigger and certain risks are more worth taking. That's something I've done in sparring before too, btw. In an essentially striking context, with a guy who was not a rank begginer but with maybe 4 or 5 years of training. He tried to close the gap with a kick and launch a fairly standard 1-2 combo at me as he closed which I slipped, using the bagua footwork and practically leapt onto his back slapping on a RNC and dropping the hooks in. We both tumbled to the ground with me on bottom but with the RNC and both hooks in place.

I think I really need to at least try and make another clip with some more freeform application of traditional CMA footwork in action. I can't promise it will be bagua but it will not be boxing footwork by any stretch of the imagination. My partner will be using pretty basic orthodox kickboxing stuff. I apologize in advance for not being able to video someone better and for not mixing kicks in because his kicks are still not really good enough for demonstrations. His punching is pretty solid though. That's 2 clips now I have to make.

1. footwork in sparring or a sparring type drill.

2. More "traditional" Muay Thai and/or boxing block and cover kind of defense. (partly just to show the degree to which I think I understand where the other side is coming from.)

As such, logically, it makes sense to stay in a good solid yet extremely mobile position from where you can always throw any strike you want, as in boxing.

Why do i need to learn mediocre strikes from inferior positions when I can simply stay in a good position and throw my best strikes all the time?

"Good position". Which way? Backwards?

You are talking about a "guard" designed to focus on one person and
pound them.

The circle walk is about making a guard that works on the assumption
that there are more than one of them. You have to "keep moving" your
guard to keep your back away from 2+ people as much as possible.
While you carve them to ribbons of course, with an eight foot broadsword.


The idea is you won't get good shots because you don't have time.

h




Now since you're involving the whole anything goes thing here I'm out of my area of practice. I'm a striker who's done a bit of grappling. My knowledge of MMA/NHB/t3hstr33ts is extremely limited, so I'd pretty much just have to take people's word for it in this context.

"Good position". Which way? Backwards?

You are talking about a "guard" designed to focus on one person and
pound them.

The circle walk is about making a guard that works on the assumption
that there are more than one of them. You have to "keep moving" your
guard to keep your back away from 2+ people as much as possible.
While you carve them to ribbons of course, with an eight foot broadsword.


The idea is you won't get good shots because you don't have time.

oh noes! Not the dreaded multiple opponents argument! :new_puppy

lol.

Good attitude anyways.

Nice circle walking Omar! Reminds me of some Wing Whatever steps, but we only go one step either direction and back so it only draws about 1/4 to 1/2 circle...

Both WT and Latosa Weapons System use the idea of Putting the foot down pointed the way it is need to direct power and remain rooted.

Kidsuat is missing the context of the crossed legs. You don't stand with the legs crossed but they cross as you move. It is a part of the mobility itself. Moving to the side, the longest distance you can create is to cross in front or behind and then move the other foot to return to a "boxer" stance. It is almost twice as far for the same effort. It has its uses. I like crossing in front to protect the standing leg. While the boxing/ bouncing stance and footwork is very mobile, it doesn't cover large distances. Its great because most of the time you don't need large distances!!

In WT, after a kick, if the way is free, you step with the toe out and bring the other foot through the space behind the standing knee to do another kick. or their is a ghost kick, the dummy form cross kick, and the turn with leg switch. Also the tropoald dummy kicking set has some very related steps....I am starting to see why you say Wing Whatever and What you do are so alike. :eusa_danc

Maybe I should make some vids.....:-)

"Good position". Which way? Backwards?

You are talking about a "guard" designed to focus on one person and
pound them.

The circle walk is about making a guard that works on the assumption
that there are more than one of them. You have to "keep moving" your
guard to keep your back away from 2+ people as much as possible.
While you carve them to ribbons of course, with an eight foot broadsword.


The idea is you won't get good shots because you don't have time.


In about a second or so I can throw 4~ solid shots, three of which are power shots shots (Jab, cross, hook, cross) while maintaining mobility and rapid forward movement. If i dont have time to throw 4 shots at an opponent and engage another then I've gotten myself into a situation that pretty much nothing is going to save me from.

(I must admit I am kind of sad that you dont come to the gym anymore, you're totally missing out on seeing how extremely fast and strong I've become since you've left :P )



In addition to that, cross stepping is slower and less mobile then boxing style footwork anyways, certainly not faster, so i really dont think it would be any better against multiple opponents.

lol. Nothing I love better than an opponent who is wedded to the idea of classic boxer type shuffling footwork. It makes it oh so much easier to outflank them. Apparently shuffling is more mobile than walking?



I wonder if you love us more then we love people that cross their feet and get hammered into the corner because they can't move fast enough or counter strike with any signifigant power.

Shuffling is plenty mobile, though the point of it is that you remain in position to move strike and defend at all times. If someone wants to walk around while I fight them I have no qualms with that.

I find it extremely unlikely that someone will outflank me in striking distance quicker then I can remain oriented on them and ready to strike when the distance is appropriette.

In about a second or so I can throw 4~ solid shots, three of which are power shots shots (Jab, cross, hook, cross) while maintaining mobility and rapid forward movement. If i dont have time to throw 4 shots at an opponent and engage another then I've gotten myself into a situation that pretty much nothing is going to save me from.



You can throw 4 solid punches in 1 second ? And when you say solid I understand that as punches with power beind them.

Whatever your day job is, quit and go become a proffessional boxer. You'll make millions.

You can throw 4 solid punches in 1 second ? And when you say solid I understand that as punches with power beind them.

Whatever your day job is, quit and go become a proffessional boxer. You'll make millions.

While that is my intention I'll never make millions in womens combat sports and i'll probably have to keep my day job.

Edit: Thats not to say that I am bad and will never make it anywhere, that's to say that the pay in womens combat sports is fuckin crap.

You can throw 4 solid punches in 1 second ? And when you say solid I understand that as punches with power beind them.

Whatever your day job is, quit and go become a proffessional boxer. You'll make millions.Three solid punches, not four. I haven't trained in 8 years and I can do that combination in under 2 seconds, maybe Anna was exagerating slightly, but not by much.

As for crossing the legs, well it's very instincual for me to maintain a solid base. I'd have to see it in action before I was convinced, because I could lay into any (boxing) sparring partner of mine who was dumb enough to cross his legs in front of me safe in the knowledge that there was **** all he could do about it until he got his feet untangled (hell, I might even be able to knock him down with a solid shot, whether he blocked it or not).

Not saying it won't work, because it goes far out of the range of my experience. But my old coach would've boxed my ears if he saw me try anything like that :)

I wonder if you love us more then we love people that cross their feet and get hammered into the corner because they can't move fast enough.....


Let me get this straight....you are asserting that shuffling is faster than putting one foot in front of the other like you do when you walk.

I wonder why sprinters and tennis players and other atheletes havn't figured this out yet.

Let me get this straight....you are asserting that shuffling is faster than putting one foot in front of the other like you do when you walk.

I wonder why sprinters and tennis players and other atheletes havn't figured this out yet.

It is if you're trying to maintain a position from which to fight well.


Of course, comparing the chicken leg walk to sprinting is a bit silly in and of itself, I would love to see someone sprint like that, wouldnt be setting any records imo...

That was not a chicken walk. And where is this crossing legs thing coming from?

Three solid punches, not four. I haven't trained in 8 years and I can do that combination in under 2 seconds, maybe Anna was exagerating slightly, but not by much.


Well, I did say a second or so ;) Certainly less then two.

Of course, point being, thats three power shots + a solid jab in short order.