Check out the vid caps I just attatched. toe in - toe out - toe in. (with one the 3rd pic being a transitional pic added for context. )Agreed, that picture helps a lot. For some reason I was conceptualizing the turn to "copu" (sp?) and the direction shift as cutting off the kick rather than facilitating it. Must need more coffee or something.

- Matt

Omar,
Good to see. The kick/kickstop drill is nice.

One of the points that nobody (except shooter) seemed
to get is the "what you train" vs. "what you can do" issue.

The other day I'm was talking to someone and fell into
a full front splits, cold, in jeans.

Do I train the splits? No. I sometimes do them.. but I don't
*train* them.
At 30+ yo and 6'3"/250#.
I can palm the floor flat-footed. I don't train that either.
It's just a byproduct/trick of apparently unrelated training :D

The flexibility comes from other training. Things like the circle
walking clip.

That last clip showing the round kick illustrated it very well. Do you think what I said before was accurate? I'm curious to your comments on that, because to me, that's what I'm seeing in the application of the kick with the stepping.


The round kick is really still just a step. It's not a Thai kick or a TKD kick or an anything kick. It's a hooking step. Just as Dale and I have both mentioned how by just raising the step a bit you can kick the person in the thigh, if you are closer, you can kneed them in the thigh. Time the steps quickly enough and toe-out behind someones lead leg as they jab and toe-in as they follow up with the cross and you have just taken their back. I've done it enough times to know it works. But you don't walk around them in a cirlce. You slice past them body to body as close as you could possibly be.

That's very interesting, it sounds very similar to something we've done a little in class before. I haven't actually tried that kind of maneuver during sparring before, I think I'll give it a shot and see what happens. Just curious, leading with what was mentioned before, you would obviously then be able to time in a good low kick or knee during the step, while you are situated to their side, correct?

Omar,
Good to see. The kick/kickstop drill is nice.

One of the points that nobody (except shooter) seemed
to get is the "what you train" vs. "what you can do" issue.

The other day I'm was talking to someone and fell into
a full front splits, cold, in jeans.

Do I train the splits? No. I sometimes do them.. but I don't
*train* them.
At 30+ yo and 6'3"/250#.
I can palm the floor flat-footed. I don't train that either.
It's just a byproduct/trick of apparently unrelated training :D

The flexibility comes from other training. Things like the circle
walking clip.

I'm curious about what you mean by this. Are you referring to the stepping toe out? Because it seems like something that would be fairly easy to accomplish as opposed to doing the splits or something.

lol. Nothing I love better than an opponent who is wedded to the idea of classic boxer type shuffling footwork. It makes it oh so much easier to outflank them. Apparently shuffling is more mobile than walking?

There is one more valid problem with "crossing your feet" but it ain't mobility and it does require a specific context. I'm kind of waiting to see if anyone here at "strikestan" will see it. The blinders here are pretty subtle.



Any point at all. That's kind of the point. Shooter already gave away the big "secret" every step is a kick....and every kick is a step. I hate re-quoting him so much on this one lately but it's really kind of true and I haven't heard a simpler way to get the idea across yet.


There's a reason why boxing footwork is boxing footwork and not just walking. Yes, it's more mobile. Not just in the context of moving around the ring (which it is), but also in the context of striking. If your legs are crossed, you have to uncross them before you've regained the mobility to manuever or throw a strike with proper rotation. This is why I'd need to see the footwork actually being used in the context of sparring or something. I'm one of those idiots that believes in the teachings of my boxing coaches.

Apart from turning the corner with that step do you find that you are able to reliably walk the other direction before your patner can reorientate himself?

Zombie Claus,

Someone just pointed out through pm that I sent you the you send it for the cut kick and not the round kick. It's a nice little drill but not the one relevant to my point. I should have sent you the roundhouse kick.

Here:

http://s22.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3QGQ2WJH135WC1YISSE24NVM72

So take my last post with this clip in mind rather than the other one.

I was already there with you (had the clip from the prev thread). :-)

That last clip showing the round kick illustrated it very well. Do you think what I said before was accurate? I'm curious to your comments on that, because to me, that's what I'm seeing in the application of the kick with the stepping.



do you mean this?

That wasn't what I was thinking but that would work.


There's a reason why boxing footwork is boxing footwork and not just walking. Yes, it's more mobile. Not just in the context of moving around the ring (which it is), but also in the context of striking. If your legs are crossed, you have to uncross them before you've regained the mobility to manuever or throw a strike with proper rotation. This is why I'd need to see the footwork actually being used in the context of sparring or something. I'm one of those idiots that believes in the teachings of my boxing coaches.

I got you. I'll try and put something up next week. It's certainly true that punching out of that footwork doesn't come naturally at first and also that it will look a lot different in application. But the main point will remain: walking around a lot and stepping left-right-left-right with what most people will consider crossing the feet. The only thing I can really say in text is just that when done right, crossing the feet is proper rotation. It's the twisting and untwisting that generates the power for baguazhang.

On this thread I've been driving home a point about "every step is a kick" but it's also equally true that "every kick is a punch" although the little aphorism doesn't work quite as well for punching. I will say though that done quickly, the "crossing step" or "toe out step" or in CMA terms the "bai bu" is often used to hook the other guys leg or to quickly scoot around to someones rear as they advance.

Here's the toe out as an entrance to a take down:

http://img530.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kneedownlegseizing26vh.jpg


It's a mistake to always place the imagined opponent at the center of the circle I am walking. But I understand...doesn't make sense without clips. Won't really make sense without getting a chance to spar with me or maybe Dale or someone else who trains it seriously. But I'll do my best with clips. . . just not today. :XXcompute

I was already there with you (had the clip from the prev thread). :-)

Cool.

Still good to correct it for any lurkers downloading this stuff. I'd rather use putfile but ...oh the irony....


Putfile Unavailable In Your Region Due to persistent abuse we regret we are not providing service to your region at this time.

:gay:

I'm curious about what you mean by this. Are you referring to the stepping toe out? Because it seems like something that would be fairly easy to accomplish as opposed to doing the splits or something.

Um.. well this is one of those things where what isn't being shown is
extremely important, mostly the upper body postures and a more
isolated version of the kou bu/bai bu stepping.

Basically that "toe in, toe out" can be worked as an isolated practice
(and should be if you are a bagua geek). It builds open/close flexibility
in the kua area (hips basically). That's why I can drop into the splits..
because in the process of working rotational flexibility and entraining
relaxation... I get the "front split" flexibility as a freebie.

But the converse does not apply. There are lots of people who can
do splits but can't rotate to the rear, keeping hips and shoulders
aligned, while keeping their feet faceing forward.

The upper body is important too.. since often the hands are pointed
45-130 deg away from the feet. The stretch is in the groin and hips.

The upper body is important too.. since often the hands are pointed
45-130 deg away from the feet. The stretch is in the groin and hips.

...which is related to Kidspatula's skepticism about being able to punch well if the feet aren't set up "right" in the way she's used to. You learn to punch from pretty much anywhere.

There's a reason why boxing footwork is boxing footwork and not just walking. Yes, it's more mobile. Not just in the context of moving around the ring (which it is), but also in the context of striking. If your legs are crossed, you have to uncross them before you've regained the mobility to manuever or throw a strike with proper rotation. This is why I'd need to see the footwork actually being used in the context of sparring or something. I'm one of those idiots that believes in the teachings of my boxing coaches.

Um.. I'd do it.. but it wouldn't prove much. I outweigh you by hundred lbs. or so.

Ask Cat about the elbow thing I did to her in Old Fort. That was an application
of k'ou bu.. just in clinch range with upper body (obviously it's easier when
you have a massive size advantage lol).

And as far as "having to uncross your legs to maneuver or throw".. um..
that's just not true.

I suppose it may be true of kickboxing.. but not bagua.

Some of my best throws are from positions where you cross the feet..

You *should* believe in the teachings of your boxing coaches... When you
are doing western boxing :)

...which is related to Kidspatula's skepticism about being able to punch well if the feet aren't set up "right" in the way she's used to. You learn to punch from pretty much anywhere.

Punch, palm, smack, poke, fore-arm smash. What winds up happening is
that if you can get something pointed one way and move *everything* in
that direction (whether by launching into them or rotating into them)
you can get decent hits from it. Not neccessarily with the power of..
oh say a straight right from a good boxer.. but if it's coming at a weird
angle and if it's something that won't break easy..

You hit'em with your ballroom gloves...

As I know **** all about kung fu, I'm bowing out of this discussion. I can't repeatedly get into the wall of "well in kickboxing maybe... but in bagua the world is flat" and continue a discussion. Have fun guys.

Not neccessarily with the power of..
oh say a straight right from a good boxer.




As such, logically, it makes sense to stay in a good solid yet extremely mobile position from where you can always throw any strike you want, as in boxing.

Why do i need to learn mediocre strikes from inferior positions when I can simply stay in a good position and throw my best strikes all the time?

Good point Anna, but what if you want to throw the person on the ground on his/her head and end the confrontation? Moving to throw someone is moving from your stable stance to a position that if caught in by the other person is thought to be a position of compromise for the thrower. Hence learning to generate power along any and all areas of your body from any and all angles, at least in theory.


I train my bagua as I would walk normally. train to fight the same way, then my body will remember when its time to fight rather than retrain my brain to do something totally unnatural when I need to not think and act, wicked fast.