I doubt bagua teaches something different.


"more mobile than that" meaning more or less evenly spaced at all times (incase you needed the clarification there).

I'm probably off the mark here, but is the footwork about building spinning energy? Put very simply, the outward placement of the front foot 'winds' the coil to build the energy used in radial strikes like round kicks.

I'd really have to see this footwork in action. Just looking at the video it looks really awkward to me and appears to limit your mobility. The whole crossing of the feet thing anyway.

lol. Nothing I love better than an opponent who is wedded to the idea of classic boxer type shuffling footwork. It makes it oh so much easier to outflank them. Apparently shuffling is more mobile than walking?

There is one more valid problem with "crossing your feet" but it ain't mobility and it does require a specific context. I'm kind of waiting to see if anyone here at "strikestan" will see it. The blinders here are pretty subtle.



When you circle in, is that the point at which you'd normally be kicking?

Any point at all. That's kind of the point. Shooter already gave away the big "secret" every step is a kick....and every kick is a step. I hate re-quoting him so much on this one lately but it's really kind of true and I haven't heard a simpler way to get the idea across yet.

I'm just noticing one of the classic bagua fallacies showing up here even from people who never studied it. The footwork always seems to suggest to the observer that you are somehow attempting to circle a stationary opponent who, in their mind, would just turn to face you.

There seems to be a great deal of difficulty for most people to see what happens when both people are jockeying for position. That's a bit complicated to address and really needs another clip to make any sense anyways. Next week I'll try to come up with something. Like I've said before, there's no one terrifically good for me to make a clip with but if I structure the drill right I think you will be able to see a bit of how it works.

Maybe something like me with arms at my sides defending against my partner who is trying to land punches wherever and however he can. That kind of handicap could force the issue enough to make it interesting.

More videos please Omar if you have time... I'd like to see the progress of what you are talking about, from that walking exercise to sparring.

Pretend I'm dumb!

lol.

I won't have a partner to work with untill next monday...at least not one that I can video. I kind of doubt my Sifu is going to be interested in indulging my whims for the sake of a discussion board. But I'll see what I can come up with. I've been working with a lot of somewhat new ideas lately. Not really new in theory, just the way I am trying to put them into practice.

Later. Thanks for reading.

Bagua footwork is like wine, there are many kinds and everyone likes a certain kind as it pertains to personal preference.

First let me say that the vid clip was a nice change from the usual weird stuff that people post. Big Respect to Omar for his posts as well as his clips.

Many people wonder why Bagua people walk in circles. It is most definitely NOT to learn to circle around someone. That is not going to work and if you tell me that I know you have not been exposed to higher levels of Bagua from someone who KNOWS how to use it in a combat situation.

Walking involves twisting the body and lengthening/contracting as well as strengthening the waist, torso and most of the muscles of the back, and legs. Walking while twisting and untwisting helps one develop a serious ability to apply various techniqes while moving. Call it training to make your body "alive". Something you MMAers get in us CMAers faces about us not having."

Back to the clip.

Most people would call the stepping pattern shown the mud walking step, or the serpent step in some schools. You slide the foot with the heel facing the ground along until you have reached your natural gait and then place the foot down, then transfer the weight from the rear leg to the front leg and repeat.

The most basic app from this walking patter would be a nasty low kick into the ankle/tib fib of the leg closest to you. Add this to a nice pair of steel toed Doc Martins, and you can break a leg really easy.


Stepping patterns like this also teach you to keep moving. You only saw Omar shift his pattern when he hooked in his outer foot to facilitate his change in order to shift his mass from one direction to another.

He "toed in" his outside leg and then shifted his weight and turned around without losing his momentum. This is what Bagua people are most well known for, they can turn very quickly and not lose their momentum which in turn powers any kind of attack or defense. Like Omar said its tough to see when you training solo.

That outside leg could be applied in many different ways. You could use it to hook around the lead leg of someone who is coming at you in order to trip them, or slice their leg out from under them. You could raise the height of the hooking leg and kick the person in the thigh(that was mentioned earlier).

But what many dont like to do is use Bagua from very close in fighting. You could use that hooking in leg to actually hook the rear leg of someone who has moved in on you. Though you would most definetly want to use the hands as well and hook the leg in one direction while pulling their torso the opposite way and causing them to come crashing down to meet mother earth, where you would keep walking with the mud/serpent step and kick them whereever you wanted after tripping/throwing them to the ground. The head and groin are the most agreeable targets for that kind of kicking.

I never try to circle around people but I like to enter angles with my shifts(footwork changes) and take an angle that is most disastrous for them and advantageous for myself.

Comments?

Omar, I like the circle walking and crossing over. I would be interested in seeing you cross the circle to see how you were taught to step, structurally how far back are you seated while you walk, to what degree do you open/close the hips during stepping, etc.

Apart from turning the corner with that step do you find that you are able to reliably walk the other direction before your patner can reorientate himself?

Thanks you for your comments Dale. I really appreciate your entrance on the thread. My better half is impatiently waiting for me to join her in the other room for a movie so I can't really respond right now but I will later. Besides, it would be nice to see if anyone else picks up on any of the things you mentioned.

Later.

Brother O,

That kind of Gung Fu is the hardest and the most delicate to maintain, the dreaded and secret keeping the other half happy gung.

Enjoy the movie.

ZC, Usually when people are walking they are walking normally with the hips slightly tucked under like your sitting on a stool, with the legs in a hip width/natural gait for walking. Training it to be as you would be walking anywhere and anytime.

l
There is one more valid problem with "crossing your feet" but it ain't mobility and it does require a specific context. I'm kind of waiting to see if anyone here at "strikestan" will see it. The blinders here are pretty subtle.

I'm thinking about this at the moment.

Crossing your feet is an transatory phase in a long step, and just like a normal step, if you're caught in the middle of it, you have limited options of where you can go.

You have to finish the step, you can't do something else, but what you can do is to modify it a little, bringing the step in short, or a little longer or a little more to the left or right.

At the same time it limits how you can throw a punch or take a blow.

Generally, I'd say it's to slow and limiting to use in the middle of a striking exchange, but it does have it's place as the other person closes the gap into striking range or in moving behind someone to take their back in stand up grappling.

Then again, I might just be talking out my arse.

We watched a bit of some Japanese comedy cartoon series she picked up but the DVD quality was so poor even here native Chinese ears had a trouble undestanding what they were saying. It was pretty funny but we got fed up with the shitty black market quality of the DVD and I am free to waste some more time on the internet. lol.

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So yeah. Mud stepping is how it was introduced to me. I've never trained any of the other kinds and in my mind they are all kind of non-standard or derivitives. I've never seen anything but mud stepping referenced in the old literature, only in the modern schools. Doesn't mean it isn't valid, just kind of auxilliary training. I've actually been slacking on it as of late as I kind of plateaud and got frustrated for a while and now recently I've started training Taijiquan proper so my stepping has gotten lain aside a bit of late. My standard practice for several years was to do an hour to an hour and a half of stepping each day in the moring mostly before sunrise.

Zombie,

I could answer your question by quoting Dale.


That outside leg could be applied in many different ways. You could use it to hook around the lead leg of someone who is coming at you in order to trip them, or slice their leg out from under them. You could raise the height of the hooking leg and kick the person in the thigh(that was mentioned earlier).

The round kick is really still just a step. It's not a Thai kick or a TKD kick or an anything kick. It's a hooking step. Just as Dale and I have both mentioned how by just raising the step a bit you can kick the person in the thigh, if you are closer, you can kneed them in the thigh. Time the steps quickly enough and toe-out behind someones lead leg as they jab and toe-in as they follow up with the cross and you have just taken their back. I've done it enough times to know it works. But you don't walk around them in a cirlce. You slice past them body to body as close as you could possibly be.


Apart from turning the corner with that step do you find that you are able to reliably walk the other direction before your patner can reorientate himself?

Have you considered that the "corner" may be represented by your opponents leg?

This is how I sometimes "turn the corner": http://media.putfile.com/kicking-drill

Get it? That's just one way. If putfile doesn't let you download it or has perhaps converted it into an .mpg try and download this clip from yousendit. I think the link should be still good:

The quicktime format makes it easier to slow it down or freez frame by dragging the timeline back and forth at whatever speed you want to view it at. That way you can see the footwork in the kick more clearly.

http://s22.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3QGQ2WJH135WC1YISSE24NVM72

I'll prepare some vid caps in a moment to make my point.

pic attatched.

The round kick is really still just a step. It's not a Thai kick or a TKD kick or an anything kick. It's a hooking step. Just as Dale and I have both mentioned how by just raising the step a bit you can kick the person in the thigh, if you are closer, you can kneed them in the thigh. Time the steps quickly enough and toe-out behind someones lead leg as they jab and toe-in as they follow up with the cross and you have just taken their back. I've done it enough times to know it works. But you don't walk around them in a cirlce. You slice past them body to body as close as you could possibly be.Thanks, this was the point I wasn't getting. This explanation immediately brings your use of Mudstepping into kicking into context. What had bugged me with the notion of the round house was the body dynamic to generate power. But utilizing a step as a kick makes sense.

Now I'll have to try it the next time I'm walking the circle and see if I can translate that head sense into body sense.

- Matt

Have you considered that the "corner" may be represented by your opponents leg?

I understand, the apex of any move or motion is just the point of a triangle that you are stepping around. I am curious, though if in addition to this you find you are able to swap leads before your partner can reorient himself while staying on the outside of the circle.

Check out the vid caps I just attatched. toe in - toe out - toe in. (with one the 3rd pic being a transitional pic added for context. )

Uh...that last post was aimed at Matt from the previous page.

For ZC I'd say that "outside" "inside" it's all irrelevant. To make any practical use of bagua you really have to rid yourself of any notions of walking circles per se. There is no imaginary circle or person that you are circling. There is just lots of curves. I may not even switch leads during the turn around. I may walk the circle backwards which is what amounts to a Shuai Jiao stealing step. The extreme toe in thing is not necessarily a change in direction along the circle. It could represent the entering footwork for a throw.

I wouldn't want to think in terms of swapping leads. That's just not how my brain processes the information. The feet have their responsability and the waist it's own and the hands their own. This kind of footwork allows the waist and the hands to do their thing more independantly of the feet yet still with the full support and power that they need. It's like acid jazz man. All kinds of **** riffing off each other on but still working together as a whole.

Here's something...look at just the first two vidcaps and play the video looking at only that part. Just pretend there's no kick comine after and what do you see? Like if I never showed the clip of the kick and only looped that lead up to the kick?