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GhostDog68
12/22/2005 1:51pm,
LINK (http://hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=661)


In the past, WC was never seen dealing with grapplers, not to say it was not with-in the systems that are out there. Nevertheless, you are correct when you say that a bunch of people have added grappling to learn how to defend against it. This is probable because they truly never had a complete system! Just a thought!

In other words, only "complete systems" such as Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun can take on groundfighters and grapplers.



I still say that you shouldn’t go to the ground. If you are put on the ground by an attack then one has misunderstood the proper time and space to use their style of WC, or its what they are using. not truly knowing their WC and how to use it. This may be due to the lack of principle/concepts or lack of understanding of those principles and concepts.

Yes. Just learn principles and concepts, know your "time and space", and you'll be takedown proof!!!


As far as grappling is concerned. Yes, it can appear intimidating at first. But once you find your WC focus, and separate your thinking from all the BJJ/JUDO/Wrestling techniques, then it is much much more easy to focus on what actually is going on.

Once you find your "Wing Chun focus" you can take those BJJ/Judo/Wrestling types on!


There is no new technology in hand to hand combat. We have not developed any third arm, or leg that can bend in any direction. We are stuck with the same tools that our ancestors had. To be honest, grappling was one of the first martial arts right?? So if anything, they need to evolve.

Yes. All you grapplers out there...YOU guys need to evolve! You guys are waaaay behind those Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun guys!


Many doubt the integrity/validity of the UFC in the Gracie years, but that's another conversation.

Two words for Wing Chunners who want to talk about the validity of the UFC:

Asbel Cancio.


Regardless, strikers are winning those competitions again. Turns our learning the ground battle wasn't that hard for them. And now you have the Gracies learning WC. Go figure....


And the Gracies are learning Wing Chun now!?!?!

chaosexmachina
12/24/2005 12:33am,
Wing chun is notorious for this type of mentality.... But the Gracies learning WC? Maybe so they can parody it...? :P

Torakaka
12/24/2005 12:39am,
Wing chun is notorious for this type of mentality.... But the Gracies learning WC? Maybe so they can parody it...? :P

I recall someone once saying Royce Gracie was a black belt in Shotokan as a way of saying it's a meritous style over on Myspace

GhostDog68
12/24/2005 1:12pm,
Wing chun is notorious for this type of mentality....

Very true bro.

And this particular branch of Wing Chun takes this mentality to a NEW LEVEL.


But the Gracies learning WC? Maybe so they can parody it...? :P

LOL!

TehDeadlyDimMak
12/24/2005 1:45pm,
Can someone please verify one of the Gracies learning WC? I can't imagine Royce or Rickson doing it, but perhaps one of the more unknown brothers got sucked in...

GhostDog68
12/24/2005 3:25pm,
Can someone please verify one of the Gracies learning WC? I can't imagine Royce or Rickson doing it, but perhaps one of the more unknown brothers got sucked in...

I haven't come across anything like this anywhere. The claim seems to be the logical outcome of our little Hung Fa Yi fantasy fu warrior's chain-of-thought:

1. BJJers are now being pwn3d by stand up fighters in the UFC;
2. Wing Chun is the ULTIMATE stand up system;

Ergo: The Gracies are now embracing Wing Chun.

And just remember what else he's claiming: Wing Chun in general, and Hung Fa Yi in particular, represents the end result and perfection of martial art's evolution. By contrast, those grappling systems still have a long way to go!

So the Gracies must embrace Wing Chun in order to catch up on martial arts evolution bro!

They're, like, so behind and stuff.

Goju - Joe
12/24/2005 4:08pm,
Royce vs Kung Fu guy

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7076063312262742465&q=gracie

Xiangfei
12/24/2005 4:13pm,
Carlson Gracie came and did a seminar at our school.

Course I'd never heard of the guy so I didn't go...

Dagon Akujin
12/24/2005 5:47pm,
Isn't this like the 10th "anti-grabbling" in WC/VT thread on here in the past week? Sheesh people. :P

And yeah, I've heard that same Gracie rumor too, and I'm curious exactly what it entails. I know that one of the Gracies was doing seminars with a WC guy, sort of like a "best of both worlds" type thing, but I haven't seen Gracies "giving up" their stuff to actively pursue WC/VT.

And yes, WC/VT does address "anti-grappling" (and sometimes better than what some of the videos popping up in all of those other threads about this seem to show). It typically deals with "shifting" weight, staying rooted, and *trying* not to go down. However, as my sifu says, if it doesn't work it doesn't work, so find your answer somewhere else. I'd say it (it being a VT answer) works for him, but it doesn't, yet, work for me. Maybe my sifu is just a little more open-minded than others, but I'll give you this example of how some of our VT classes go:

We were having a "what are you curious about today" kind of class and started working on bear-hug and basic escape things. We were just figuring things out and finding out what worked, and where VT fit in. After a little bit, my sifu said, "I know you're curious about that bear-hug thing, but what is the thing that really scares you. And, don't be a ***** about it. If VT doesn't work, it doesn't work. What is the thing you really worry about." So we started working on the RNC (rear naked choke).

I put a basic RNC on him and he said, "Sometimes, when the other person is being really mean, you just have to be meaner." He showed some ways to include flesh-tearing, nut-grabs, eye-gouges... that sort of thing. But then he was like, "But that's not what you're looking for. Go ahead and go all the way, and I'll see if VT has a simpler, sorta nicer answer as well. And don't be a ***** about it. I know how to tap."

I gave it at least a good 90%. I pulled him back off his feet, hid my fingers when his hands came up, and wrenched his head forward. He still dropped back into his stance and was able to place his shoulders into a good position, twist his head and body around, and shove my body away from him and force my arms out of the RNC. It was the best "answer" I've seen for that. And it really didn't take him getting "mean" to counter me either.

Then again, as per the complaint normally given against WC/VT, we didn't spend time working on that, as it was not the sort of thing beginning or even intermediate VT guys learn or work on (maybe that should change?). And I don't think I could come close to doing it myself (yet). :P But my sifu was very open minded, and at the same time very traditional. He even made sure to ask what I thought about it, as opposed to declaring that what he did was the answer. He also asked if I messed up at all and wanted to do it again.

This was very different than when something like this happened in my old karate classes. Then again, it wasn't my head instructor there, but one of the black-belts that often taught. I put in maybe 25%, and when that guy wrenched me around I let go because he was spinning in circles and obviously out of control of the situation (and I thought I was about to break his neck). He then went on about how he "showed" me that the RNC was nothing, but instead I sat there thinking that he had proven the exact opposite.

*shrug*

So maybe all I'm trying to say here is that at least with my sifu there are more open minded schools out there that don't share that "Simply do this approach and everything is peaches!" while at the same time confirming that it's not the sort of thing that is thought of as being "simply" countered by WC/VT.

Dagon

P.S. I'm really annoyed that Fox News keeps calling Putin's judo gi his "kimono". Fuking Eeediots!

Dagon Akujin
12/24/2005 5:48pm,
Sorry, that was a lot longer that I had hoped or thought :new_xmas:

Dr._Tzun_Tzu
12/25/2005 1:14am,
I did a Rigan Machado Seminar many years ago. I was wearing some Leung Ting AWTO pants with our logo on them. Rigan walked around meeting everyone, and when he got to me, he looked at my pants, smiled, and said "Drunken Monkey" which ting has a booklet on. Rigan later, from his back, demonstrated an awsome skill of "monkey" legs locking and throwing down standing opponents. Miny where sim to moves in Drunken monkey. This does not mean he ever studied WT, but he knew the connection. My favorite was a move standing face to face, he fell back, hooked the leg as he went through the legs, then stod up behind the guy. The guy ended on the floor on his face with his leg locked in Rigand leg. Brutal!!!

At the end he also took each of us from standing, face to face, much like Chi Sau. WC Rolling then trap, or choke, or armbar. again, i do not think he took WC but he knew what it was and could do it. I was the only Chunner there....

I think that website is full of ****, by the way......Gracies are not takeing WC for any reason other than to come up with ways to try and beat them, if they are taking WC at all.

Shawarma
12/25/2005 8:06am,
A while ago, Carlson Gracie and Samuel Kwok, WC wiz, held a series of joint BJJ/WC seminars. I think this is where this particularily retarded piece of chunning propaganda comes from.

Chango
12/25/2005 10:31am,
First I would like to say that this post is taken out of context. If you look closer at other areas on the HFY108 forum you will see that there is no one range of combat better then any other. The fact that you must not be innocent in any aspect of combat. This was demonstrated early on by the Gracies in the start of UFC. Now it just seems that the playing field is now leveling. (strickers and grapplers)

I have studied many versions and lineages of Wing Chun in the past (from empty hands, dummy to knives) and one of the things that really helped me identify with Hung fa yi is that it does address all areas of combat from stand up long range to the ground. It is not something that was added after the pick up in interest of ground fighting. It is something that simply fits in the logic of the system. It's not from a "anti" Point of view. You will also find that all aspects are trained and not limited to doing a form of Chi Sau or kiu sau.

This system ask you to look beyond the technique and look at the concepts and principles. I think all martial artist can identfy with Time,space and energy as the factors that govern what is effective and less effective. Hung Fa Yi's approach goes to not only being more effective but efficient. Not saying other approaches are any less effective. The consistancy of this system is beyond anything I have experienced. This system does not only ask you to measure things by being effective but also to ask the question of "What is most effeicent?". You may not be able to identfy with Hung fa Yi. That's cool no one said Hung Fa Yi was for everyone. It's not for everybody. I can only say that I can identify with it's approach. No one ever said one style can beat another. This all comes down to the individual no matter how you slice it.



I can only speak from my experiences. Just last year I worked as a bouncer so I really had a chance to put alot of things to a test. I'm a rather big guy (300lbs) and I quite a few experiences with guys much larger then myself and what I've learned in my Hung Fa Yi training really helped me not only overcome larger and multiple people. But it also allowed me to control them and the situation.

GhostDog68
12/25/2005 11:27am,
First I would like to say that this post is taken out of context.

Greetings Chango. I must respectfully disagree, for I fail to see what's out of context here.

Did, or did not, "duende" claim that the Gracies are learning Wing Chun?

Did, or did not, JamesHFY imply that Hung Fa Yi is a complete system that can deal with ground fighting? [But only if one does NOT go to the ground of course!]



This all comes down to the individual no matter how you slice it.

Indeed. Because's there's no such thing as a "complete system", contrary to what many of your Hung Fa Yi sihingdai constantly claim.

GhostDog68
12/25/2005 12:02pm,
If you look closer at other areas on the HFY108 forum you will see that there is no one range of combat better then any other. The fact that you must not be innocent in any aspect of combat.

You mention both range and aspect of combat. Are these two different things, or are they the same?

I know you guys arrange your curriculum along the lines of "the four ranges of combat." (Long Kick, Long Strike, Trapping and Grappling). In addition to HFY per se, you do a lot of "saan kiu training" to make sure you can do things in these various ranges. But aren't the HFY techniques you learn primarily for the trapping range? And doesn't your "grappling range" stuff consist of "anti-takedown drills" so that you can break a clinch and return to a standing phase of combat?

So what IF you go to the ground? What HFY techniques per se can assist you once you're on the ground?

I would say "aspects of combat" would be more like phases of combat: free-standing, grappling and ground. From the looks of it, you guys don't do the latter at all.

JamesHFYofAZ
12/25/2005 2:56pm,
I just made a post but i lost it! oops!
Someone mention my name?
Hello, and season greatings!