Actually It isn't that I don't feel I can fend for myself (I am a fairly big guy and have fought in the past when I was a bigger knucklehead) it is just that my focus isn't solely on how fast I can prepare myself for streetfighting that I hope I have grown out of at 34. I think you have to try fairly hard to get in to a physical confrontation and would like to think I am maturing (at least some). We do practice grappling and do a ton of striking and I do realize that chi na would not be something I would be trying to use in a fight. In real fights I have pretty much always used my hands. It has been a decade since I got in a fight outside of a dojo and I intend to keep it that way. I think it is a mistake to think that martial arts should be used solely to learn how to fight. Mental discipline and control make the man.

Mike

But why do you need martial arts to teach you mental discipline and control?

Why practice something, like Chin Na, which is intended for fighting, when you yourself realize that you would not use it?

Even though you don't get into fights and you want to keep it that way, others may not want too. Of course you may never end up in another fight, but you don't know. Some people are just assholes. You might not start it, but you'll still be in one.

Practicing hand movements that make no sense and are not practical do not make you mentally disciplined. Your 34. Im sure life has disciplined you enough. If you really want to discipline yourself, to control your mind, all that mind over body stuff, theres tons of things to do that have real impacts. Get into shape. Your body is a machine. Treat it like one and find out how to take care of it the best way. Learn a new language. Read War and Peace.

Martial arts should be about fighting first. Because if it were only about discipline, why not just have a martial art of reading?

Reading increases your knowledge but not necessarily discipline over your mind. Learning a new language will not necessarily discipline the mind either. I agree that the physical aspect of martial arts increases discipline. Discipline of body can help lead to discipline of mind. I practice chin na because learning sensitivity to partners and learning principles of motion and the way the body moves certainly helps your understanding of how your body moves and will help you discipline your body and mind. How many people do you know that have been training for 30 years and still find themselves getting in to fights? Somebody could certainly attack you but the first line of defense is going to be mindfullness and awareness of your surroundings and control of your situation. Those things come from discipline of the mind.

So let me put on my reading glasses and karate chop a book....

Hi Clutch. Fist of all, I want to say that I practiced with Robert Brown for 7 years and know many former students that practiced with him even longer than that.

I agree with you that the physical of what he teaches is great, and I do not believe that I ever said anything to the contrary.

For me, and a huge percentage of his students that left over the last 12 to 18 months, the rub is: If he lied about his teachers, how much time he spent learning from certain ones, invented teachers that did not exist, changed the name of his art by 1 letter so it resembles REAL AND AUTHENTIC YUECHIA, but people don't really notice, what else is he lying about?

He will treat you well for another year or 2, and then you will see a change, or you will open your eyes and see how he treats others. Did you ask yourself why there are almost NO senior students in the school? Where did all of his Red Sashes go? Where are the bulk of his 2nd green? Hmm...

Just so you know...He is the only person in the world that teaches YUCHIA (besides Hurtsellers that he is teaching) because he made up the name. The forms, besides Sanchin, are forms that he made up. When you ask, he will tell you that the principles are thousands of years old, but he never does tell you that he made them up. Ask him where he learned them? He does not meditate...hmm. He is angry all of the time and masks it in front of everyone but his close circle (Jerri, Ryan, Pat right now). Ask around what happened to Jason...did he really move or was it all a lie? Ask him where he learned T'ai Chi...it is a mixed up bag of stuff and you still won't know where he learned it. I can tell you that some of his T'ai Chi students have demonstrated in front of authentic masters whose response was: "What was that?"

If you are learning and are happy, go for it! But if you DO NOT want to part of perpetuating lies, half truths about what he learned and what he teaches, LEAVE!

I particularly like the story about when he announced to the "YUCHIA" people (must have been in the mirror) that he wanted to teach, and they said no and kicked him out of the federation. He magically meets a Master at Shaolin who teaches Yuchia who promotes Brown over everyone else? NOT!!! It is not even spelled right!!!

Yes, but instead of doing Chin Na to increase sensitivity, you could be doing BJJ or another grappling style (Judo, Sambo, Wrestling, Sport JJ) which will give you real sensitivity that is useful.

The problem is that the principles of motion are not taught by doing Chin Na. If they were, it would work. They do not, as we agreed before. Right? So how can it teach you principles of motion?

I know lots of people who trained for years and have not gotten in to fights. That doesn't mean there not prepared though.

I don't understand how you could learn a skill that only imitates fighting but gives you no actual skill into a real fight.

Once again, with principles of motion, if you really want to learn how to off balance a person and use their own force against them, take up Judo. You'll learn true sensitivity as someone is trying to toss your ass and your trying to toss them. Its not a rough and tumble, see whose stronger contest. Its a true test of technique along with timing and strength.

Live grappling involves sensitivy? C'mon, now you're going to confuse the man with facts.

Reading increases your knowledge but not necessarily discipline over your mind. Learning a new language will not necessarily discipline the mind either. I agree that the physical aspect of martial arts increases discipline. Discipline of body can help lead to discipline of mind. I practice chin na because learning sensitivity to partners and learning principles of motion and the way the body moves certainly helps your understanding of how your body moves and will help you discipline your body and mind.

Who ever said anything about grappling not increasing sensitivity? I merely said that Chi Na is ONE WAY to increase sensitivity. I had actually had two replies that were well thought out and sincere and had high hopes for the level of intellect on the board.....Then came the one directly above this one.........Le Sigh....

Yes, Chin Na increases sensitivity but it does not carry over effectively to combat, which martial arts are for.

What are you increasing sensitivity for? Why do you want it? What does it mean to you? How does this discipline yourself anymore then learning any other skill?

Please refer to the whole essay "Okinawan Karate and World Peace" by Nagamine Shoshin

In my opinion you have a stunted view of martial arts. Here is a small exerpt. Please read it and think about it before you reply.


"The first type is the one sublimated into sports. The second type is martial arts (budo) which includes the development of virtue. Karate-do is definitely a martial way, and its identity lies in do, orprinciples. Any martial art without proper training of the mind turns into beastly behavior. Martial way training is a process to put forth effort to reach an eventual stage of "emptiness." What you attain through this training is called butoku (principles of warriors).
I cannot help thinking that postwar martial arts in Japan, possibly because of the influence of occupation policies, have turned into just martial technique and have lost their substance. Martial art students tend to be overly concerned with wins and losses and only seek reputation and awards. I am truly concerned with the fact that we have forgotten the way of mind: shin-zen-bi (truth, honesty and beauty) and lost the essence of the martial way."

"True bushido could be explained in the following saying, "The best victory is the one attained without a battle."

Please refer to the whole essay "Okinawan Karate and World Peace" by Nagamine Shoshin

In my opinion you have a stunted view of martial arts. Here is a small exerpt. Please read it and think about it before you reply.


"The first type is the one sublimated into sports. The second type is martial arts (budo) which includes the development of virtue. Karate-do is definitely a martial way, and its identity lies in do, orprinciples. Any martial art without proper training of the mind turns into beastly behavior. Martial way training is a process to put forth effort to reach an eventual stage of "emptiness." What you attain through this training is called butoku (principles of warriors).
I cannot help thinking that postwar martial arts in Japan, possibly because of the influence of occupation policies, have turned into just martial technique and have lost their substance. Martial art students tend to be overly concerned with wins and losses and only seek reputation and awards. I am truly concerned with the fact that we have forgotten the way of mind: shin-zen-bi (truth, honesty and beauty) and lost the essence of the martial way."

"True bushido could be explained in the following saying, "The best victory is the one attained without a battle."

thanks for this totally irrelevant quotation that addresses and refutes absolutely nothing that's been said since you started posting in this thread

What are you increasing sensitivity for? Why do you want it? What does it mean to you?

Perhaps you missed part of the thread

Call me crazy, but I have a different opinion, one that stems even from the organization which I belong to. The goal of a martial art is the same as any weapon. It is to overcome another person. In a recent article I read from the AJJF, it basically says that you can't expect Americans to follow Japanese traditions without some real frame of reference. All of the bowing and "spirit flows" simply don't fit into our culture, and make little sense. The relationship between a Japanese teacher/student is significantly different from the American viewpoint.

In the end, there is nothing shameful about someone who studies an art to compete, or for whatever other reason they may choose. There is no honor in combat, I don't fight "fair", and I don't expect my opponent to, either. (Not relating to competition, of course). I am really not sure where this concept of honor and fairness in war comes from, even in Japan's feudal time period, the objective was to win. Don't confuse the philosopher's viewpoints with the General's.

I won't say that learning an art for the purpose of "self enlightenment" or some other "higher cause" is wrong, but don't expect others to see it that way. In fact, I doubt most people see it that way in our particular society. If you ever meet me on the street and give me cause to fight, I promise that my first thought won't be to kick, punch, or submit you. =) Taser, maybe... followed by handcuffs. I train outside of that as there are those times when you need to go hands on.

I don't do it for the budo.


Please refer to the whole essay "Okinawan Karate and World Peace" by Nagamine Shoshin

In my opinion you have a stunted view of martial arts. Here is a small exerpt. Please read it and think about it before you reply.


"The first type is the one sublimated into sports. The second type is martial arts (budo) which includes the development of virtue. Karate-do is definitely a martial way, and its identity lies in do, orprinciples. Any martial art without proper training of the mind turns into beastly behavior. Martial way training is a process to put forth effort to reach an eventual stage of "emptiness." What you attain through this training is called butoku (principles of warriors).
I cannot help thinking that postwar martial arts in Japan, possibly because of the influence of occupation policies, have turned into just martial technique and have lost their substance. Martial art students tend to be overly concerned with wins and losses and only seek reputation and awards. I am truly concerned with the fact that we have forgotten the way of mind: shin-zen-bi (truth, honesty and beauty) and lost the essence of the martial way."

"True bushido could be explained in the following saying, "The best victory is the one attained without a battle."

Clutch I get what your saying, I read the quote (I think it was addressed to me) and heres what I have to say.

Theres nothing wrong with studying Chinese culture along with your martial art. As long as the martial part is still relevant, you can bow, acknowledge holidays and meditate all you want (thats not a knock at you BTW, I'm not being sarcastic). But the very core of any martial art is to fight, to defend oneself. Of course it doesn't always mean fight though, it could mean run away or use a taser or call for back-up or anything you can do to survive the situation.

Now since your studying a Chinese art; it has its roots in China; there are going to be cultural aspects from China that come with the learning. Thats fine, but a martial art should still at its core teach you martial arts.

Even though I practice BJJ and Muay Thai, I do not lack what would be called Budo (the warrior code, right?) I train hard, I know that I train to defend myself and those around me if the need ever arises. My training method is one that uses ring sports to hone my skills but I never forget that my skills are first and foremost learned to defend myself. I don't care about winning or loosing a fight, Ill walk away if need be. In fact I don't think about loosing a fight, because then my mind won't be in the now. Sort of like, if you do not fear death, your mind won't be cluttered and you can fight on the battlefield clearly and tot he best of your skills.

BTW, isnt Karate-Do a very recent invention?

Has anyone pointed out that Clutch simply likes the LARP aspect of martial arts? That's what his posts convey to me, anyway.

Has anyone pointed out that Clutch simply likes the LARP aspect of martial arts? That's what his posts convey to me, anyway.

Yeah, I do feel that some people get more rapped up in the history or "romance" of "times gone by". If these people ever bothered to read said history, however, they would see that it wasn't so romantic.

That is not to say that the "arts" should be lost. Like dance, painting, and music, I feel that there is a certain draw to martial forms that promote movement as opposed to actual self defense or even sport. I will be honest and say that I enjoy watching aikido practitioners. I would never put a lot of stock in straight aikido saving my ass, though.

That brings us to the real point, if the art is fluff, don't try and tell me how good it works in real life. Practice what you enjoy, just be honest with yourself.

I see I need to clarify myself a bit. I could not care less about wearing a robe or drawing a samurai sword or quoting haiku. I think that it is the physical aspect of training that improves somebody's attitude and outlook on life. I think getting hit in the face helps humility and humility helps outlook. I think that attempting to be a good partner helps somebody be more forgiving and patient. i think that entering the training floor and leaving the crappy things in life outside the dojo help with stress relief. It isn't that I think meditating until I can levitate will help me be a better man. I think the nature of the practice improves human beings if they let it. I did a three hour grappling seminar yesterday with a world class jui jitsu practitioner who has his black belt under Renzo Gracie. He touched on a few of these goals and I agree with him. He made sense in a practical way, not a roleplaying or fantasy way. He didn't even have on a white robe and he wasn't wielding sai.
Mike