So I was watching The Ultimate Fighter tonight, and seeing the guy get repeatedly called in the first round for use of downward elbows and upkicks. It got me to thinking, doesn't the banning of these two strikes heavily favor the guy in the top of the guard? I haven't done any MMA training (only BJJ), but it seems to me that downward elbows would be easier to apply for the guy on bottom in closed guard, and upkicks would be a valuable tool from open guard. Opinions?

Eh, it kinda goes both ways.

No you cant upkick your opponent, nor can you throw the elbows leading with the point from the bottom of the guard, but your opponent cant punt you in the face if you're turtled down (as Mirko and Silva do so well)

Oh, and thank god for that rule against striking downward with the point of the elbow- all the grapplers in the UFC would be KO'ed whenever they attempted a double leg :jerkit2yf

I agree, judges favor the person in the gaurd too.
they need to allow spike elbows, it would reduce lay n pray.
just think of the koscheck vs leben fight, and if leben would have smashed josh's collarbone to pieces, but he couldn't

I don't know how I feel about outlawing upkicks; Not only does someone who leans over his downed opponent's guard pretty much deserve to get punted in the face, this is the kind of technique that any untrained fighter might toss out.

Is it just me, or is the whole MMA is as close as you can practically get to the street argument losing steam with every added rule?

Didn't one of the Gracies take out somebody with an upkick?

Also, as the UFC tries to become more mainstream, it will look less and less lke a real fight.
UFC has to marketed and made palatable for the masses. Pride on the other hand will be there for people who want to see the closest thing to sanctioned NHB.

Renzo knocked out Oleg Taktarov with an upward kick. Bustamante also did it to one of the Lion's Den guys in the mid 90's in a fight in Brazil.

Renzo knocked out Oleg Taktarov with an upward kick. Bustamante also did it to one of the Lion's Den guys in the mid 90's in a fight in Brazil.

I thought that was Ralph Gracie that KO'd Oleg.

As a general rule, any rule that limits any kind of striking is going to favor the guy on bottom. The guards strength is in submissions. I don't think anyone has ever one from the bottom with strikes. Maybe ther's an exception somewhere but I doubt it.

I disagree. A complete rule against all striking favors the guy on the bottom, but that's not what we're talking about here, is it? We're talking about bans on specific strikes, most of which look like the kinds of things you would want to use on the bottom. For example, I do not see how a rule against upkicking can in any way favor the guy on bottom (lol)

I'm no expert, but I think all of the following rules hurt the guy on bottom of the guard more than on top:

no eye gouging
no striking to the back of the head
no striking downward with the elbow
no upkicking
no kicking the kidney with the heel

Of course, there's a bunch that hurt the guy on to too, such as no slamming on the head, but overall I think the guy on bottom loses more.

The heel kicks to the kidneys are the big one, IMO.

In UFC 55, Joe Riggs cut Chris Lytle open with a nice elbow from the bottom to win by TKO. Granted I think Riggs was winning the fight anyway and that's the only win by striking from the guard that I can think of, but I guess it's possible. I'd still rather be the one on top throwing elbows though.

The banning of upkicks is obscene, and I also think kicks to the kidney from gaurd being banned is bullshit too, you can inflict ALOT of pain from there.

I support legalizing headbutting and outlawing elbows. Elbows are singularly for cutting the other guy.

I disagree Phrost, I havn't seen many nhb fights ended by headbutts in exception of cuts. elbows and headbutts just seem to cut, I like PRIDE rules the best.
Its the most balanced ruleset imo.

kicks to the kidney from gaurd being banned is bullshit too

You can't punch or kick a guy in the kidneys while standing up; why the hell would they allow it while groundfighting?

I understand why they banned kidney kicks . . . Even a series of nasty elbows are not going to cause organ damage (the brain doesn't count). However, I hear that many competitors were pissing blood after matches, which isn't much fun.

I agree with Mister Jones about upkicks and . . . now that I think about it, Phrosty makes a good point about elbows. Holy ****, that was pun-tastic. Getting rid of elbows to the head would probably do a lot for fighter longevity, etc. For reference, see Tanner vs. Loiseau.

I confess...I had no idea what the hell an "upkick" referred to but even so, the topic says "in the guard". Not a very usefull thing to do once the guys already in your guard.

Well yeah, not gonna be used when they are tied up tight, but there is also open guard to think about. They are both guards, and are both positions that can occur commonly, and can transition to and from each other. Weakening one weakens both.


no eye gouging - doesn't really favor either position AFAIK.

It seems to me that in a tight closed guard, esp after you break down the top guy's posture (which the bottom guy should be trying to do anyway), an eye gouge is much easier to apply for the bottom guy, just because he's riding higher on his opponent's body.


no striking to the back of the head - again, barely relevant. Strikes to the back of the head don't amount to much when your tied up on the ground. Kind of like the heel kicks to the kidneys but without the risk of pissing blood after the fight.

Again, I think you're being too restrictive in considering only 'tied up' situations. It would be easy to get in a stray elbow to the back of the head while going for a guard guillotine or kimura IMO.


no striking downward with the elbow - definately favors the guy on bottom. Striking can be done from the guard reasonably well...not fantastic but it can be done. Never seen anyone do it well from the bottom, including elbows.

In the fight that sparked this discussion on TUF last night, the guy on bottom had LOTS of opportunities for downward elbow strikes. It seems to me that when you 'visualize' the guard, you are only visualizing a losing guard for the guy on bottom. There are many degrees of guard, depending on posturing and whatnot, and in most of the closed guard ones that favor the bottom guy, if he were going to strike he would probably do so with an elbow. Whereas the top guy, sure he lost one tool, but it is one of many, since he can still use forward elbows and punches with high effectiveness.


No way man. When have you ever seen a fighter win the striking game from the bottom? Can you name anything at all other than the kidney kicks? Even the
upkick I don't think happens when the your guard is already on.

People have been KO'ed by upkicks, and people have been cut by downward elbows. I can't think of a specific situation offhand, but I'm certain I've seen it before.


I don;t care what strikes you use. You will NOT win the striking game from guard.

First of all, people have won with strikes from the guard, so this is patently false. Furthermore, this discussion isn't about who has better opportunities to strike overall (of course I agree the guy on top has it better in this department). This discussion is about whether the specific strikes banned by UFC have more of an impact on the guy on bottom or top.