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Toby Christensen
10/06/2005 6:43pm,
Given that I am researching, which schools of ninjitsu are real and which are fake?
Ashida Kim's an obvious posterior helmet, but what about other people?

DubhGhaill
10/06/2005 8:38pm,
Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu

MONGO
10/06/2005 9:04pm,
2 of the BJK ryu are verified as authentic. Togakure ryu is not though.

thomaspaine
10/06/2005 11:41pm,
I was under the impression that the only legit ninjutsu ryus were Togakure, Kumogakure, and Gyokoshin, which are 3 of the nine Bujinkan schools, and even these are a little questionable because Hatsumi refused to turn over the scrolls for review to become an official koryu. I've never seen anything I thought to be close to a legitimate claim from any other ninjutsu ryuha.

MONGO
10/06/2005 11:51pm,
I have heard that there is lineage problems with Togakure ryu from the Koryu council here in Japan and the entire BJK as a whole won't stand the test because of the teaching methods.

Kukishinden ryu is a Koryu art because it is so closely related to Kukishin Ryu which is a registered koryu here in Japan.

thomaspaine
10/07/2005 1:45am,
As I understand it, Hatsumi refused to turn over the Togakure Ryu scrolls over to the Koryu council because of an oath he made to the previous grandmaster. Hatsumi says that he doesn't care because he doesn't consider the Bujinkan to be koryu anyways, he thinks it's a "living" art. Regardless, I've met people who claimed to have seen the Togakure scrolls, so at least they have a scroll, which is more than I can say for any other arts claiming to be ninjutsu. I.E. dux ryu, any koga ryu, etc, Not that the scroll couldn't be faked or anything though. Don't know anything about conflicts with the teaching methods though. I was under the impression that a couple of the jujutsu schools in the Bujinkan were considered koryu.

Cullion
10/07/2005 3:37am,
I have heard that there is lineage problems with Togakure ryu from the Koryu council here in Japan and the entire BJK as a whole won't stand the test because of the teaching methods.

Kukishinden ryu is a Koryu art because it is so closely related to Kukishin Ryu which is a registered koryu here in Japan.

I genuinely curious. What qualifies an art for Koryu status, and why would the Bujinkan's training methods bar it ?

Ronin
10/07/2005 7:12am,
Legit "ninjutsu" ryu ?
Hmmm, considering that, in the "old days" ninjutsu was part of the curriculm in a bujutsu ryu, its hard to say what is legit ninjutsu OUTSIDE of those Ryu like the TSKSR and the Yagyu-Shinkakge ryu and so on.
Even the Takenouguchi -ryu ( sp?) has some "ninjutsu" in it.

Current "unofficial" stance is that Hatsumi formalised some legit bujutsu ryu like the Koto and the Gyoko, into his Togokure-ryu system, so, offically, anything from the Togakure is not "legit" per se.

But as with all things ninja, no one really cares all that much.

Gezere
10/07/2005 7:45am,
Hastumi wanted the schools of the Buj to be recognized as Koryu bujutsu but in order to do that he has submit mateiral to a commity of sorts. It not that Hatsumi refused to turn over anything but that some of the material didn't stand up to the scrutiny of scholars. Now this pretains mainly to the art labeld NINJUSTSU. Other schools in the Buj are verifiably legit.

I myself and also starting to question the Gyokushin Ryu school. The Buj labels it as NINJUTSU but a school of the same name has been label withthe more approriated title of JUJUTSU. This is the same school that Minoru Mochizuki studied as a kid. Both say that one of the forte of Gyokushin was sutemi waza. It is said that the sutemi of Kodokan Judo comes from Gyokushin as well, but neither Kano nor Mochizuki ever mention ninjutsu. The Buj says Takamatsu taught Kano but it seems odd since they also say Takamatsu didn't like judo when he saw it, so if anyone can clarify this please do.

Ronin
10/07/2005 7:50am,
Hastumi wanted the schools of the Buj to be recognized as Koryu bujutsu but in order to do that he has submit mateiral to a commity of sorts. It not that Hatsumi refused to turn over anything but that some of the material didn't stand up to the scrutiny of scholars. Now this pretains mainly to the art labeld NINJUSTSU. Other schools in the Buj are verifiably legit.

I myself and also starting to question the Gyokushin Ryu school. The Buj labels it as NINJUTSU but a school of the same name has been label withthe more approriated title of JUJUTSU. This is the same school that Minoru Mochizuki studied as a kid. Both say that one of the forte of Gyokushin was sutemi waza. It is said that the sutemi of Kodokan Judo comes from Gyokushin as well, but neither Kano nor Mochizuki ever mention ninjutsu. The Buj says Takamatsu taught Kano but it seems odd since they also say Takamatsu didn't like judo when he saw it, so if anyone can clarify this please do.

I have heard this too...
Hard to say what is "truth" and what is "heresay".
Thing is, from the looks of things ( from the outside looking in), it may well be that "ninjutsu" was just a name given to a situation where jujutsu/kenjutsu/ etc. techniques were used in a certain way.

I mean, a samurai using kenjutsu in a "ninja like fashin" could be labled as doing "ninjutsu".

Fact is, the TSKSR teaches "ninjutsu-like" techniques such as shuriken-jutsu and the yagu-shinkage ryu has "ninja-to" type techniques also.

Whatever that means.

Peter H.
10/07/2005 11:03am,
I genuinely curious. What qualifies an art for Koryu status, and why would the Bujinkan's training methods bar it ?

Koryu normaly refers to any school with a traceable, authenticated lineage, and training method dating to the Tokugawa era (1603-1868) prior to the Meiji Restoration, from Japan (not including Okinawa, if I remember correctly)
(see www.koryu.com for list).

gcarson
10/07/2005 2:50pm,
There are no legit Ninjutsu Ryu. That said, one has to realize that the practices that are often classed as "ninjutsu" have never stood alone in their own style, but are parts of larger curriculum.

The one (and pretty much only for sure) school that has been authenticated by all authorities is the division of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu that contains ninjutsu in its training. This school has been given the nod for being the oldest (proven -not claimed) school in Japan.

There are others, like the 3 schools that the X-Kans claim (as listed by others above) but their lineages are not widely accepted as completely authentic. Togakure has been considered highly suspect while Gyokushin & Kumogakure are under question because their lineage has gaps and the organizational structure has been heavily altered in modern times.

Most Koryu underwent some kind of change during the Meiji Restoration (1868+), and you can get an awesome viewpoint of this and the pressure that created these changes in Donn Draegers works.

However, the oldest Koryu do have lots of goodies that have not changed. And unlike modern organizations that have 'modernized' the teachings/methods (Buj is good example of this), these Koryu schools are adamant about preserving their history and clarity, for tradition and cultural reasons.

Long and short of it = no ninja schools exist. Some folks teach pieces and most honest practitioners (and those good ones in the x-kans) will point this out themselves. If someone is nutriding the ninja angle......well its pretty obvious what they are full of. (cough cough ...ashidawannabeloser... cough)

MONGO
10/07/2005 9:18pm,
Takamatsu and Kano were documented as friends but there is nothing in any text that I have found that said that anything from Takamatsu-den schools went into the Kodokan syllabus.
I haven't found any similarities in techniques either, BJK has much more atemi waza and less "real" throws, the majority of throws are actually joint locks with a bit of throwing incorporated.

Shuriken are really not that unique to ninjutsu, there is a lot of traditional kenjutsu/jujutsu/yawara/whateva that incorporates bo shuriken and other such things. The actual techniques of gotonpo, explosives, and poisons are the most unique and the only real reason anything is "ninjutsu". All of those techniques have been made obsolete by modern technology and the new and improved can be found in the majority of special operations training.

Toby Christensen
10/08/2005 6:12am,
Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu

Um...

Is that the name of one ryu, or several?

MONGO
10/08/2005 8:34am,
Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu is the oldest recognized martial art in Japan and is very well thought of. They are homebased out of Narita city here and they are very strict on quality control.

Not in anyway associated with the BJK or another ninjutsu organization.

Gezere
10/08/2005 2:43pm,
Also the TSKR teaches serval forms of JMA form kenjutsu, iaijutsu, bojutsu, naginatajutsu, sojutsu, taijutsu/jujutsu, shurikenjutsu, chikujojutsu, gunbaiho, in-yo kigaku to ninjutsu.