I don't think the shou shu guys want to argue anymore...

Beast_master(?)'s comments neglect Da Shifu al Moore (sr)'s claims of defeating 12 (or 15? see newspaper clip in other thread) and Acria also said include ARMED attackers in her estimations.

Are you a closet Shou Shu'er or something? (cue: witch hunt)

Just because they are not the only ones to make these claims doesn't suddenly make it acceptable.


Hi again!

Now don't give me **** for coming back and posting after I said I was done. Folks keep throwing my name around, so I wanted to respond.

First: in regard to my armed attackers, actually, I was just referring to one... see, in 2001 a woman jogging near my home got attacked by some lunatic loser with a knife. She panicked and froze and he cut her up and raped and killed her. That's a visual that motivates me to train hard, in hopes that I'll make it out alive if it ever happens to me.


But REGARDLESS, as was mentioned elsewhere, every art has folks who make claims. Why do you target Shou Shu? I answered your questions, and you ignored my answers. This continues to read like an attack on my chosen art that could be leveled at any art.

How about the guys who train down the street from me who tell their students that waving a hand in front of your face will keep a guy from being able to hit you? How about the guys who actually teach their students how to deal with an attacker wielding a gun?? (The only thing anyone in Shou Shu has EVER told me regarding a firearm is to hand over your wallet quickly and hope they don't shoot.)

You're not going to attract Shou Shu students over here to argue with you. And I can tell you why - these threads continue to insult the art we enjoy training in. And many of your points could be used against most MA studios.

So no hard feelings, but this feels about as productive as nailing jello to a tree.

Good luck with your cagefighting.

But REGARDLESS, as was mentioned elsewhere, every art has folks who make claims. Why do you target Shou Shu? I answered your questions, and you ignored my answers. This continues to read like an attack on my chosen art that could be leveled at any art.

We target everyone that spews bullshit claims like being able to take on 6+ attackers successfully. You're just the one in the crosshairs at the moment.



How about the guys who train down the street from me who tell their students that waving a hand in front of your face will keep a guy from being able to hit you? How about the guys who actually teach their students how to deal with an attacker wielding a gun?? (The only thing anyone in Shou Shu has EVER told me regarding a firearm is to hand over your wallet quickly and hope they don't shoot.)


What the hell does this have to do with your BS?



You're not going to attract Shou Shu students over here to argue with you. And I can tell you why - these threads continue to insult the art we enjoy training in. And many of your points could be used against most MA studios.

Stop making ridiculous claims about your fighting abilities that you have no intention of demonstrating, and you won't be insulted for making them.

Do you just not get that you can't run around claiming to be able to beat up 6 people at a time without being asked to prove it, or are you so brainwashed that you're incapable of seeing that you're living in a fantasy world?

Hi again!

Now don't give me **** for coming back and posting after I said I was done. Folks keep throwing my name around, so I wanted to respond.

First: in regard to my armed attackers, actually, I was just referring to one... see, in 2001 a woman jogging near my home got attacked by some lunatic loser with a knife. She panicked and froze and he cut her up and raped and killed her. That's a visual that motivates me to train hard, in hopes that I'll make it out alive if it ever happens to me.


But REGARDLESS, as was mentioned elsewhere, every art has folks who make claims. Why do you target Shou Shu? I answered your questions, and you ignored my answers. This continues to read like an attack on my chosen art that could be leveled at any art.

How about the guys who train down the street from me who tell their students that waving a hand in front of your face will keep a guy from being able to hit you? How about the guys who actually teach their students how to deal with an attacker wielding a gun?? (The only thing anyone in Shou Shu has EVER told me regarding a firearm is to hand over your wallet quickly and hope they don't shoot.)

You're not going to attract Shou Shu students over here to argue with you. And I can tell you why - these threads continue to insult the art we enjoy training in. And many of your points could be used against most MA studios.

So no hard feelings, but this feels about as productive as nailing jello to a tree.

Good luck with your cagefighting.

The people posting negative things about the ludicrous multiple-attacker-defence claims are just trying to do a public service by educating newcomers to martial arts about the blatanty unrealistic nature of such claims. If you're secure in the knowledge that anybody who claims to be able to take on 10 attackers is talking crap, more power to you.

Beast_master(?)'s comments neglect Da Shifu al Moore (sr)'s claims of defeating 12 (or 15? see newspaper clip in other thread) and Acria also said include ARMED attackers in her estimations.
Sorry I got him confused with the WB tv show. Not Beast Master - BeastApprentice.


Are you a closet Shou Shu'er or something? (cue: witch hunt)

Just because they are not the only ones to make these claims doesn't suddenly make it acceptable.

No I'm not a closet Shou Shu'er. I have only taken TKD, SBD, WC, and BJJ. I guess why I'm trying to give these guys a fair chance is that unlike all the other systems that get ragged on, I'd never heard of these guys till tfcrugby's post about his 1988 experience. I guess given the facts I had, albeit I dunno what they've said/done in the past on other forums, it didn't seem like they should get the usual bullshido flaming. But you have more experience with them kickcatcher, so I guess you'd kno better.

As for that last statement, it's true. But then sometimes I dunno, feels kinda redundant and hopeless... like I had a convo with a rather disillusioned bullshido MA practitioner like a week or two ago and I just remember thinking eh he's one out of millions... y bother. BUt of course, got to trudge on even though odds are against us...

I've said this a few times before - its possible for people to take on multiple attackers and win. If they are trained fighters you still might be able to do it.

Heres a devils advocate example:

Mike Tyson (using him as an example of a very good striker) goes into a kids TKD class and challenges them all to a fight to the death...

after boxing everyone to death

he then rests for a few minutes and decides to take on the local professional basketball team.... his chance of surviving this is probably pretty unlikely but he might make it out alive after bashing a few of them...

He then decides to take on the entire US Olympic boxing team at the same time. Perhaps he might get one or two punches off before he is savagely beaten.

I'd like to use this opportunity to draw attention to Folgore from Zach Bell and his ineffably awesome song Hey Hey Let's Dance all Day CHICHI WO MOGE, which means SQUEEZE THE TITTIES.

http://rydia.net/shaz/stuff/journal/chichimoge.gif

The problem here is that these people believe their own bullshit. I'd hate to think what would happen if one of them actually found themselves in such a position.

i have knucklehead! damn you guys got thick freaking skulls! as i have said before.... if you were with someone you loved, hmmmm lets say your mother or daughter and let's say for example 5 guys wanted to rape them, would it really matter if it were 5 or 16? you'd do anything to protect your loved one wouldn't you? i know i would! to me it wouldn't matter how many, or what they knew. so you guys are saying that you would hand over your mother or daughter cause there's a limit to how many guys you can take on at once? if that's the case then how in the hell can you call yourselves martial artists, fighters? i guess it just doesn't fit in with your version of reality? not everyone in the fighting arts trains the way we do, we don't do touneys, it's not a tournament art, it's a fighting art! you know martial..... martial arts. we have alot of blackbelts and students who studied other arts that after learning shou shu for awhile would never go back to what they were learning. i have personally taken on multiple opponents with success. so i know it works. if any of you guys live in central or southern cali feel free to stop by anyone of the moore's schools and check it out for yourselves, there's only so much i can say here. shou shu has to be seen and felt to believe.

i have knucklehead! damn you guys got thick freaking skulls! as i have said before.... if you were with someone you loved, hmmmm lets say your mother or daughter and let's say for example 5 guys wanted to rape them, would it really matter if it were 5 or 16? you'd do anything to protect your loved one wouldn't you? i know i would! to me it wouldn't matter how many, or what they knew. so you guys are saying that you would hand over your mother or daughter cause there's a limit to how many guys you can take on at once?

Yes, but there's this nifty thing called Objective Reality which doesn't care how badly you want to defend yourself or someone. Your desire doesn't enter into it any more than my desire to not be shot translates into being bulletproof.



i have personally taken on multiple opponents with success. so i know it works.

Who were they? What was the situation? Can you prove this is true or is it just another pointless anecdote that we're supposed to believe as fact?

You're making claims, the burden of proof is on you.

i have knucklehead! damn you guys got thick freaking skulls! as i have said before.... if you were with someone you loved, hmmmm lets say your mother or daughter and let's say for example 5 guys wanted to rape them, would it really matter if it were 5 or 16? you'd do anything to protect your loved one wouldn't you? i know i would! to me it wouldn't matter how many, or what they knew. so you guys are saying that you would hand over your mother or daughter cause there's a limit to how many guys you can take on at once? if that's the case then how in the hell can you call yourselves martial artists, fighters? i guess it just doesn't fit in with your version of reality? not everyone in the fighting arts trains the way we do, we don't do touneys, it's not a tournament art, it's a fighting art! you know martial..... martial arts. we have alot of blackbelts and students who studied other arts that after learning shou shu for awhile would never go back to what they were learning. i have personally taken on multiple opponents with success. so i know it works. if any of you guys live in central or southern cali feel free to stop by anyone of the moore's schools and check it out for yourselves, there's only so much i can say here. shou shu has to be seen and felt to believe.
Shifu_Tiger, you are completely misunderstanding us. If we were faced in a similar situation with loved ones against multiple attackers, yes, everyone of us would fight to the death for our loved ones, no matter what the outcome.

That's not what we're talking about in this thread. We're talking about the fact that a significant amount of Shou Shu practitioners think they can be reasonably successful with 10-15 attackers - that you can escape with little to no injury.

Yes, most of us would risk our lives in a 10-15 attacker scenario that involved loved ones, we would fight for them. But our point is that in reality, we would get beaten silly - realistically 10-15 attackers attacking at once is insane. That doesn't change the fact that we would fight - we'd all fight even if we get beaten. But we don't believe that coming out of a 10-15 attacker scenario with little injury is realistic. Even some of your other students/instructors like Acira and BeastApprentice would agree that although not impossible, it is highly improbable to escape with little injury.

.... if you were with someone you loved, hmmmm lets say your mother or daughter and let's say for example 5 guys wanted to rape them, would it really matter if it were 5 or 16? you'd do anything to protect your loved one wouldn't you? i know i would! to me it wouldn't matter how many, or what they knew. .......... i guess it just doesn't fit in with your version of reality? not everyone in the fighting arts trains the way we do, we don't do touneys, it's not a tournament art, it's a fighting art! you know martial..... martial arts. .....


Yes, but there's this nifty thing called Objective Reality which doesn't care how badly you want to defend yourself or someone. Your desire doesn't enter into it any more than my desire to not be shot translates into being bulletproof.

You're making claims, the burden of proof is on you.

Since a MMA TV event featuring a single person fighting off Multiple Attackers has never been done, it must not be possible. Everything possible has been done in MMA Video events. :new_infin

jokes aside, Someone once said you need to be 10 times better than your opponent to win with easy and sureness. As you get into Multiples, the 10 times better gets harder and harder, see the Tyson example. So it can be done, but it is hard to be even 5 times better than the situation, so it is not something you should count on being able to to very often. Special practice helps, but it is not gonna get you 10 times better than a few trained fighters, espesially if they practice fighting as a group!!

It would be a sweet TV program. "Tonite on the M.O.F.C. Tank Abbot takes on 3 fighters from the Lions Den, and in a special event, Royce Gracie faces off against 5 TKD black belts...." :thumbsup:

Yes, but there's this nifty thing called Objective Reality which doesn't care how badly you want to defend yourself or someone. Your desire doesn't enter into it any more than my desire to not be shot translates into being bulletproof.



Who were they? What was the situation? Can you prove this is true or is it just another pointless anecdote that we're supposed to believe as fact?

You're making claims, the burden of proof is on you.


i just threw that scenario out to give you something you could actually relate to. a few cranksters and the situation was they approached me in an aggressive manner cause they thought i was giving them a hard look. so the fight was on and i took care of myself very well, it wasn't a life or death situation, just a couple of pukesacks looking for trouble and found it. how can i prove it? any suggestions? it wasn't filmed and no still pix were taken. i don't care if anyone believes it, it did occur and if it had not been for my shou shu training i wouldv'e had my ass handed to me. burden of proof? am i on trial? do i have to prove anything to anyone? you guys seem to think taking on multiples is impossible and it isn't if that's what you train for. i am not here to brag about anything but just trying to help you guys understand how we train. in this country you have the absolute right to defend your life, even if it means maiming or worse to another person. i understand limitations, i know i'm not going to ruin someone for calling me a few bad names or road rage, etc.... i save the real stuff for when it's needed most. i respond accordingly! later

SO IF I LOVE MY COUNTRY MORE THAN I LOVE MY FAMILY DOES THAT MEAN I CAN STORM THE BEACHES OF NORMANDY WITH NOTHING MORE THAN A BOWIE KNIFE AND FLY AN AMERICAN FLAG THERE ONCE AGAIN?

...YES, I KNOW THE GERMANS DON'T HAVE IT ANYMORE

do i have to prove anything to anyone? you guys seem to think taking on multiples is impossible and it isn't if that's what you train for. i am not here to brag about anything but just trying to help you guys understand how we train. in this country you have the absolute right to defend your life, even if it means maiming or worse to another person. i understand limitations, i know i'm not going to ruin someone for calling me a few bad names or road rage, etc.... i save the real stuff for when it's needed most. i respond accordingly! later

Do you have any practitioners of your style in the UK ?

SO IF I LOVE MY COUNTRY MORE THAN I LOVE MY FAMILY DOES THAT MEAN I CAN STORM THE BEACHES OF NORMANDY WITH NOTHING MORE THAN A BOWIE KNIFE AND FLY AN AMERICAN FLAG THERE ONCE AGAIN?

...YES, I KNOW THE GERMANS DON'T HAVE IT ANYMORE
You can go ahead and try.You have my blessing.Furthermore,the French are worse than the Germans.

i just threw that scenario out to give you something you could actually relate to. a few cranksters and the situation was they approached me in an aggressive manner cause they thought i was giving them a hard look. so the fight was on and i took care of myself very well, it wasn't a life or death situation, just a couple of pukesacks looking for trouble and found it. how can i prove it? any suggestions? it wasn't filmed and no still pix were taken. i don't care if anyone believes it, it did occur and if it had not been for my shou shu training i wouldv'e had my ass handed to me. burden of proof? am i on trial? do i have to prove anything to anyone? you guys seem to think taking on multiples is impossible and it isn't if that's what you train for. i am not here to brag about anything but just trying to help you guys understand how we train. in this country you have the absolute right to defend your life, even if it means maiming or worse to another person. i understand limitations, i know i'm not going to ruin someone for calling me a few bad names or road rage, etc.... i save the real stuff for when it's needed most. i respond accordingly! later

So you do understand what I said in my last post right? We're not against defending loved ones, by all means do your best. We are against the notion that fighting off 10-15 attackers with little to no injury at once is something that can be done again and again.

In your latest post, you mention "a few cranksters." How many is a few? If it was 2 or 3, then I'd believe you, I think it is definitely possible to fight off 2 or 3 people.

However if you're talking about 10-15 attackers (which is what some of your practitioners are saying), then that's completely different. 10 to 15 people at once - you only have 4 limbs and a certain field of vision and a certain amount of time until they are all on top of you. It is not likely that a situation like that can have positive results.

But 2-3 people is doable, I don't think many would disagree on that. of course, it also depends on the opponents, how much training they have, etc.