I reckon it will. I'll bet you 1 varrot.

I'm not sure if I have any varrots but I'll take the bet anyway.

I phoned Sifu O'Neal. He was a nice guy and answered all the questions I asked, and backed up most of what Jay has said.

He confirmed that he had moved to chinatown, as Jay said. He said he still knew Jay (he popped in from time to time), and had heard that Jay was practicing mantis now.

I didn't ask him about his own lineage because he was a nice, polite helpful guy and he hadn't been accusing anybody else of anything. I'd be happy to acknowledge that there was some perfectly straightforward explanation why he wasn't mentioned on the Ip brothers' sites.

However, he said that Jay had practiced Wing Chun with him for 3 or 4 years rather than 12.
He thought the whole thing was rather amusing and a bit of a waste of time.

It's quite possible that Jay has told the whole truth about his own background. Paul's recollection of 3 or 4 years could be based on formal class time, and Jay is counting informal sharing of techniques/knowledge.

Good try, but I think the ranting is going to just carry on forever, on this forum or some other forum.

Probably true ... jay & kwan have followed and trolled me for quite some time now. I'm their Hero and they need me in order to justify their own existence :3some:


I'm inclined to think that the sparring session won't actually happen,

Dude, it's on and a done deal. EA has to take some leave time and this is the perfect opportunity for him on several fronts. Check it out, Maryland is going to star down big time. The TD scheduled for 9/18 is well represented both in terms of cross section of MA and total number of attendees. For both 9/17 - 18 ...
It's A Go! :eusa_danc


The lineage thing did seem relevant only in the context of the other sides ability to prove that they had trained for a number of years and this is straightforward to check by contacting the sifu. There was also a question mark about the sifus status, which a few of us will be checking.

Should prove interesting and informative.


I agree that anything beyond this to define who has got the "true" wing chun/SPM is wank.

Save for the most recent innovations this holds true for all MA. "History" is really only the recorder's perspective ... subject to error, political motivation, personal desires, ect. Given the basic nature of MA, the ego involvement ... it all gets strange very fast.

Seems about the best anyone can hope for is to get some level of informed opinion regarding recent (within the last 25 - 50 years, max) events. Over time, myth grows and mutates ... often times into something not even remotely on point with the myth creator's intentions.

I've stated it in the past ... however, here it is again. Of what real value would knowing the "real" history of any MA system - style be to today's practitioner? The only real question is ... Can "you" make it work here and now?

In Group we had a saying ... and all the young studs coming into Group were treated to it ... "Don't tell us what you have done ... show us what you can do." Pretty decent standard, I think. John

However, he said that Jay had practiced Wing Chun with him for 3 or 4 years rather than 12.

Now that is interesting :tongue3:


It's quite possible that Jay has told the whole truth about his own background. Paul's recollection of 3 or 4 years could be based on formal class time, and Jay is counting informal sharing of techniques/knowledge.

Good of you to provide jay cummins aka John Rockwell with an out ... he's going to need it.

I disagree with your conclusions in this matter. If "jay" was basing it on informal association ... friendly exchanges ... then he should have stated it as such. The proper way, the traditional way, the HONEST way is as follows: "I formally learned under Sifu X for Y number of years and then continued to engage in informal exchanges with Sifu X for Z number of years."

I "know" jay and he continues to misrepresent himself across all fronts. On his KFOL Forum profile he notes "20 years" as his time of training and sets down "SPM" as the only system - style. The clear inference being that he has studied SPM for 20 years. He's got less than 3 years ... according to his most recent personal history rendering.

BTW, jay claims to be a MENSA (Certified Genius) and you really have to ask yourself the question: Are these "mistakes" or "omissions" that a genius would make?

Busted ... AGAIN, jay. Man, you are one lying 'tard that just doesn't learn :evil3:

Now, let's get back to the issue of your alleged 15 professional boxing matches, jay. Where's the proof of that claim? :laughing4 John

I disagree with your conclusions in this matter.

I don't want to be misunderstood. Sifu O'Neal did say Jay had trained for 3-4 years rather than 12. I haven't reached a conclusion, I'm just passing on what Sifu O'Neal told me so people can make up their own minds. I mention the possibility that Jay is giving a time based on informal exchange in the interest of fairness. It's best not to leap in with both feet until one knows the facts.

I initially thought it suspicious that Jay & Steve mentioned a different address from the one mentioned on Sifu O'Neals website, but as it turns out he really has moved location to be near where Jay & Steve train and hasn't updated his site. I'm glad I checked.

Professional boxing fights are a matter of record, as I understand it, so it should be easy to check such a claim, if Jay did indeed make one.

Now that is interesting :tongue3:



Good of you to provide jay cummins aka John Rockwell with an out ... he's going to need it.

I disagree with your conclusions in this matter. If "jay" was basing it on informal association ... friendly exchanges ... then he should have stated it as such. The proper way, the traditional way, the HONEST way is as follows: "I formally learned under Sifu X for Y number of years and then continued to engage in informal exchanges with Sifu X for Z number of years."

I "know" jay and he continues to misrepresent himself across all fronts. On his KFOL Forum profile he notes "20 years" as his time of training and sets down "SPM" as the only system - style. The clear inference being that he has studied SPM for 20 years. He's got less than 3 years ... according to his most recent personal history rendering.

BTW, jay claims to be a MENSA (Certified Genius) and you really have to ask yourself the question: Are these "mistakes" or "omissions" that a genius would make?

Busted ... AGAIN, jay. Man, you are one lying 'tard that just doesn't learn :evil3:

Now, let's get back to the issue of your alleged 15 professional boxing matches, jay. Where's the proof of that claim? :laughing4 John


List all the things that you allege that Jay has layed claim to that you dispute. Skip the "tard" insults because they just add bulk and your feelings are quite clear by now. Then Jay can confirm or deny them and the checks can be made. Otherwise this is just going to go round in circles forever.

If he's boxed amateur or pro within a recognized governing body... than the record can be found somewhere.

PM me real names and location of fights, and any other relevant information and I can make the necessary inquiries.

[QUOTE=JFS USA]I don't know what "dead on it" means, does that mean that you are OK now and fit enough to take part in sparring?

I'm at 100%. John

I'm at 100%. John

That's pretty impressive considering what you've been through.

Have you got any definite plans to come over to the UK in the near future?

That's pretty impressive considering what you've been through.
Have you got any definite plans to come over to the UK in the near future?

It's being worked out as I type this. Looks like October is the window. You ought to come learn the Tid Sin Kuen. If you aren't up for that at least stop in and say "hello" ... go have a cup of coffee ... meet some other WC peeps on your side of the pond ...

As for the Rehab thing ... thanks for the kind words. I don't know how to quit and I'm far too old to learn now. John

List all the things that you allege that Jay has layed claim to that you dispute. Skip the "tard" insults because they just add bulk and your feelings are quite clear by now. Then Jay can confirm or deny them and the checks can be made. Otherwise this is just going to go round in circles forever.

I key stroke at about 60 words per minute and don't have a week to dedicate to this. Here's something of a partial list ... you do realize that jay cummins aka John Rockwell isn't going to provide a "straight" answer to any of this?

1. When I busted him out for being a Southern Praying Mantis "newbie" jay responded with he had studied Hakka Tong Long (Southern Praying Mantis) for 19 years. jay later qualified his Hakka Tong Long as being the Chu Gar variant as I had stated that LYS Hakka Tong Long played much like Old Frame Chu Gar and jay took exception to my characterization.

jay never provided the name of his Chu Gar Sifu despite being repeatedly asked to do so. Chu Gar is fairly small in terms of numbers in any geographic location. Most Hakka Tong Long split along the Ip Shui & Lum Sang lines in the 1980s.

2. jay claims to have repeatedly met with Lee-Lien who is the sole source of authority in his area for the LYS Pai. Despite being repeatedly asked to provide proof of him ever being face to face with Lee-Lien jay has failed to do so. He is fond of rubbishing my photo proof & video proof but provides none of his own.

3. jay has repeatedly stated that a letter of disassociation exists. Said letter allegedly contains proof that I was "kicked out" of the LYS Pai rather than willingly divorced myself from them once the smearing went majorly public. He's never produced the letter as he threatened - promised - whatever.

I have the Emails from Ellie, Wife of Lee-Lien, acknowledging my voluntary withdrawal from their Pai and of my withdrawing my offer to bring the LYS Pai hand into America. BTW, in one of her Emails, Ellie writes that she doesn't know anyone by the name of jay cummins/John Rockwell.

4. Jay posted that he was a MENSA (Certified Genius) and termed MENSA an "ancient society." Here's the URL, you decide whether calling it an "ancient society" is something you would associate with a genius saying:
http://www.mensa.org.uk/mensa/what_is.html

5. jay claims to be the voice, or one of the voices, of the LYS Pai. Yet, he provides no proof of his even being in the Pai. On video tape, in his own living room, Lee-Lien states in both Hakka and English that I am his US Representative.
EA is welcome to sit down in comfort and watch/listen for himself on 9/17 post gong sau.

6. jay claims that Eddie Berry is the rightful heir of Ho-Sing's hand. Yet, no proof of a Spri being given to Eddie has ever been provided despite repeated requests. No document bearing Ho-Sing's signature and chop designating Eddie as his representative has ever been produced despite being repeatedly asked for. jay has repeatedly avoided providing any proof whatsoever yet continues to make the claim, lie.

7. jay claims there is a Spri and notes it as being in Lee Har Village. What is in Lee Har Village is the Sun Toi, not the Spri. Yet, jay continues to insist that a Spri exists as he claims. jay has never been able to provide an answer to a simple question. Namely, What is the difference between a Spri and the Sun Toi?

8. In his Kung Fu Online personal profile jay notes "20 years" of training and cites to LYS Hakka Tong Long as his sole style. Recently, jay stated that he has less than 3 years of LYS SPM. His explanation is where?

9. Shift forward in time. jay has claimed that he has 15 professional boxing matches. He dodged inquiries as to why no one could find any record of him on the Tung-Fu Forum. He's in the UK where everything is Government regulated to the max. Where's the proof?

10. Late add on that presents "jay" nicely I think. From the Tung0Fu Forum:

Jay
Green Belt
Posts: 182
(18/8/05 16:28)
Reply
Re: thai
________________________________________
Yo KJJ

"... If this turns into some lame friendly sparring match it's going to really ruin the whole thing. How g@y"

Sadly, your prediction has come true with Jack saying something like "it's gonna be a pleasure doing some friendly sparring with a like-minded individual".

How very G@Y indeed.

So the self proclaimed "Real TCMA fighter" and "BEAST" is now doing what he criticizes everyone else for. Sport fighting....

Wonder if he'll wear gloves and training equipment like all the poseur, wannabee MMA @#%$?......

Credibility pass....REVOKED!

__________________________________________________ __

Show us, jay, show us where I state "friendly" anything? Show us jay, show us where I say "Sport fighting"? I say "gong sau" the proper name for a traditional match. I say ... "I go as hard as you." You attempt to **** stir when you yourself lack the guts to face me. Proof of it being otherwise is to be found where?

11. One of my most fave "jay" lies: When he first started posting his rubbish on the old SPM Forum he posted as jay cummins (exactly as he typed it). When the Forum MODS decided that only those who used their "real" name would be allowed to post he changed his name to John Rockwell. When I questioned him on it he stated that "jay was a nickname for John." Well, "Jack" is the proper nickname for John ... but if he wants it to be "jay" ... that's cool.

How then is "cummins" a nickname for Rockwell? He's been asked this several times and ignores it. I say he's a liar who even lies about his own real name. What's jay cummins aka John Rockwell's explanation?

Okay, there is a pared down lists of his claims that I assert are nothing more than lies. Good luck getting anything of real substance in the way of answers from him. John

It's being worked out as I type this. Looks like October is the window. You ought to come learn the Tid Sin Kuen. If you aren't up for that at least stop in and say "hello" ... go have a cup of coffee ... meet some other WC peeps on your side of the pond ...

As for the Rehab thing ... thanks for the kind words. I don't know how to quit and I'm far too old to learn now. John

If it's anywhere near the North West of England I'd be up for that, let me know.

I'm not sure I understand all of the points, but there are 10 things there that he needs to address. It's simple enough and it looks like most of them can be checked independantly.

Presumably he's also got a long list of accusations that you'll be happy to answer?

:new_sleep

jack you really know how to twist words around to suit your side of the story.......

also... tell us how you had a 'stroke' 4 months ago and yet still have a blood pressure of 54... something of a medical miracle i say!

bil jee - Presumably he's also got a long list of accusations that you'll be happy to answer?

yes we do... but we cant be bothered typing it out cos we know jack is going to dodge the questions....

:new_sleep

jack you really know how to twist words around to suit your side of the story.......

also... tell us how you had a 'stroke' 4 months ago and yet still have a blood pressure of 54... something of a medical miracle i say!

bil jee - Presumably he's also got a long list of accusations that you'll be happy to answer?

yes we do... but we cant be bothered typing it out cos we know jack is going to dodge the questions....


The low BP is quite feasible, for a number of reasons.

You can and have been bothered to carry on hurling abuse over the internet, I don't accept that you aren't interested enough in the whole thing not to answer ten simple points.

There are also the points about the discrepancies between what you claimed about your sifu and the reality of the situation. Those points need to be addressed. Side stepping them will completely destroy your credibility.

Atleast JFS is going to put his skills to the test at a Throwdown that will be videoed. That gives him 1000 times more cred than Jay and Geordiesteve... the rest of it is just pissing in the wind.

If it's anywhere near the North West of England I'd be up for that, let me know.

Got no idea. If it's out of your area I'll get with some of the local folks and arrange for free room and board for you. Up to you.


I'm not sure I understand all of the points, but there are 10 things there that he needs to address. It's simple enough and it looks like most of them can be checked independantly.

I guess. The 15 Pro Fights claim should be fast and easy. He could easily provide proof of the Spri and/or letter bearing signature and chop as well. His "name" issue is something else all together.

No way he could have done 19 - 20 years of SPM and not be able to name his Sifu. Depends if the guy is still alive or dead I suppose on the proof end of it. jay should have a picture of him doing Bai Shi to his Sifu.

Some of the other things I noted seem reasonably straight forward. Then again, I'm severely biased as I've endured the taunts of jay and kwan for over a year now. Bullshido peeps will have to decide the matter.


Presumably he's also got a long list of accusations that you'll be happy to answer?

Certainly, bring them on. If you send me a PM or Email with a "snail mail" addy I'll put some things into the mail for you. Take them to your Sifu and ask him about them. I will load up EA with some of the same things.

Our gong sau match is being video taped and made available for all Bullshido members to see. I think that's fairly reasonable. I have nothing to hide and my hands are nothing less than good. John

PS

Just read kwan's response and if you scroll back through this thread a day or so you will see where I stated their SOP is to get sullen and basically state they don't have to prove anything to anyone. It's all ready happening.