Fair enough... I'll see if I can find the abstracts to those papers I referenced and post them. That might help clear things up...

I just like to avoid projecting my own biases and opinions on things when I can. Maybe I go too far with it, but sometimes, (especially since I am teaching this stuff at the University level), if I project my beliefs on it I think it takes away from the understanding and trust of the data. In my experience, if I tell students what I think the data means they usually don't buy into it as much as if they come to some sort of understanding from reading and discussing it.

I don't know whether that makes any sense or not... LOL Like I said, I may take it too far. I'll try to post the abstracts from the papers...

Akira Musashi, are you a fucking bodybuilder? Why do you care so much about size? Have you tried stability to recuit more muscle fibers in a functionally enhanced environment(i.e. doing functional excercises on one leg or a stability ball?) Post your full routine and I'll improve upon it. Just switching from a standing military press to a standing one legged military press is a whole different excercise, and it's functional. Try this. Instead of your regular bench press(?), put your upper body on a swiss ball and your feet propped up on a bench. reach behind you and grab the barbell lying on the floor, or have someone give it to you. Have one end of the barbell weighing 10-20 pounds lighter than the other end, and focus on bench pressing without having the heavier end dip down. Repeat with the other side. Hardest damn excercise in the world, and by far the most compound.

I hope that's not an up to date picture in your profile, because you look a bit young(I have no room to talk, I'm 17), and your neck muscle look weak. Bulk them up jackass. Begin with either weighted neck excercises or neck bridges and such. I will further critique your figure in a moment.

your forearms look big enough, but it looks as though your not doing enough for your shoulders. Try killing them. No, not that way, put down the knife. Do 10 of each:Front raise, lat raise(out to sides), L raise(bend arms until weights are vertical, level, then do lat raises), overhead press, high pull then bent over row. All with dumbells, unless you really want to be hardcore, then you can do it with two barbells(it's possible, trust me I've done it before) Be creative dammit, before I have to staple creativity into your uneven chest. Your nipples look like milk duds.

Akira Musashi, are you a fucking bodybuilder? Why do you care so much about size? Have you tried stability to recuit more muscle fibers in a functionally enhanced environment(i.e. doing functional excercises on one leg or a stability ball?) Post your full routine and I'll improve upon it. Just switching from a standing military press to a standing one legged military press is a whole different excercise, and it's functional. Try this. Instead of your regular bench press(?), put your upper body on a swiss ball and your feet propped up on a bench. reach behind you and grab the barbell lying on the floor, or have someone give it to you. Have one end of the barbell weighing 10-20 pounds lighter than the other end, and focus on bench pressing without having the heavier end dip down. Repeat with the other side. Hardest damn excercise in the world, and by far the most compound.

That is one of the stupidest training ideas I have ever heard. This idea has been debunked so many times by actual research it is amazing that people still believe it. Sort of like superslow and HIT.

And just so you don't think I am making this crap up, here is the data to prove it...





Dynamic Medicine - June 2005

Replacing a Swiss ball for an exercise bench causes variable changes in trunk muscle activity during upper limb strength exercises

Gregory J Lehman, Trish Gordon, Jo Langley, Patricia Pemrose, and Sara Tregaskis

Abstract

Background: The addition of Swiss balls to conventional exercise programs has recently been adopted. Swiss balls are an unstable surface which may result in an increased need for force output from trunk muscles to provide adequate spinal stability or balance. The aim of the study was to determine whether the addition of a Swiss ball to upper body strength exercises results in consistent increases in trunk muscle activation levels. Methods: The myoelectric activity of four trunk muscles was quantified during the performance of upper body resistance exercises while seated on both a stable (exercise bench) and labile (swiss ball) surface. Participants performed the supine chest press, shoulder press, lateral raise, biceps curl and overhead triceps extension. A repeated
measures ANOVA with post-hoc Tukey test was used to determine the influence of seated surface type on muscle activity for each muscle. Results & Discussion: There was no statistically significant (p<.05) difference in muscle activity between surface conditions. However, there was large degree of variability across subjects suggesting that some individuals respond differently to surface
stability. Conclusion: Selected trunk muscle activity during certain upper limb strength training exercises is not consistently influenced by the replacement of an exercise bench with a swiss ball.

Key words: EMG, exercise, spine stability, swiss balls, rehabilitation, low back pain



and here is another...



J Strength Cond Res. 2002 Aug;16(3):416-22.

Muscle force and activation under stable and unstable conditions.

Behm DG, Anderson K, Curnew RS.

School of Human Kinetics, Memorial University of Newfoundland

The objective of this study was to determine differences in isometric force output, muscle activation (interpolated twitch technique), and electromyographic activity of the quadriceps, plantar flexors (PF), and their antagonists under stable and unstable conditions. Instability in subjects was introduced by making them perform contractions while seated on a "Swiss ball." Eight male subjects performed unilateral leg extensor (LE) and PF contractions while seated on a bench (LE), chair (PF), or a ball. Unstable LE and PF forces were 70.5 and 20.2% less than their stable counterparts, respectively. Unstable quadriceps and PF activation averaged 44.3 and 2.9% less than activation under stable conditions. Unstable antagonist/agonist ratios were 40.2 and 30.7% greater than stable ratios in the LE and PF protocols, respectively. The greater decrements with LE can be attributed to the instability of only 2 points of floor contact, rather than 3 points of floor contact as with the PF. Swiss balls do not represent a viable method of training for strength or power given their inherant instability.

Sweetheart, I'm a powerlifter, not a bodybuilder. As I said in my first post, if you haven't been lifting weights and from your other retarded posts you haven't ,don't post, slapnuts.

Just because you like to chew on iceberg lettuce and you live at home with mommy who's on food stamps doesn't make you the end all on fitness training. My chest is uneven because I'm at an angle from the camera. If you would like a new picture that you can make your monitor sticky with, let me know so I can take one. So while you're hunched over your monitor jacking off to your "aw3som3 l337" handiwork, remind yourself that one, you're still a 17 year old with no future, and two, until you post some pictures, and your stats, know your place.

As for my stats at 22 years 162 lbs, I can Squat 405, DL 350 w/o straps and bench 200. After one year of training.

Excellent squat to BW ratio... Congrats!

Akira Musashi, are you a fucking bodybuilder? Why do you care so much about size? Have you tried stability to recuit more muscle fibers in a functionally enhanced environment(i.e. doing functional excercises on one leg or a stability ball?) Post your full routine and I'll improve upon it. Just switching from a standing military press to a standing one legged military press is a whole different excercise, and it's functional. Try this. Instead of your regular bench press(?), put your upper body on a swiss ball and your feet propped up on a bench. reach behind you and grab the barbell lying on the floor, or have someone give it to you. Have one end of the barbell weighing 10-20 pounds lighter than the other end, and focus on bench pressing without having the heavier end dip down. Repeat with the other side. Hardest damn excercise in the world, and by far the most compound.

I'm gonna pick apart your posts bit by bit.

I care about size, because, larger size equates greater strength. Period. We can also throw in CNS efficiency to recruit the maximum amount of fibers and the greatest possible speeds, but I already work on this through working on a SSC method of lifting to generate "explosive" strength.

Doing a standing Military Press on one leg. That might work with the colored weights you're using, but when you try doing that with 170+ lbs, you look like an idiot and you run the chances of getting injured. You should be sterilized for mentioning that. I bet you do squats on a swiss ball too because "it works to promote stability!!!! LOLZ!!!"

Okay, so you advocate doing benchpress on a swiss ball, with differentiating weights on each side. How do you remember to breathe? This is too stupid to even bother addressing.

You're using compound incorrectly.

Also, "stabilizers" are recruited with any free weight movement.

That is one of the stupidest training ideas I have ever heard. This idea has been debunked so many times by actual research it is amazing that people still believe it. Sort of like superslow and HIT.

And just so you don't think I am making this crap up, here is the data to prove it...





Dynamic Medicine - June 2005

Replacing a Swiss ball for an exercise bench causes variable changes in trunk muscle activity during upper limb strength exercises

Gregory J Lehman, Trish Gordon, Jo Langley, Patricia Pemrose, and Sara Tregaskis

Abstract

Background: The addition of Swiss balls to conventional exercise programs has recently been adopted. Swiss balls are an unstable surface which may result in an increased need for force output from trunk muscles to provide adequate spinal stability or balance. The aim of the study was to determine whether the addition of a Swiss ball to upper body strength exercises results in consistent increases in trunk muscle activation levels. Methods: The myoelectric activity of four trunk muscles was quantified during the performance of upper body resistance exercises while seated on both a stable (exercise bench) and labile (swiss ball) surface. Participants performed the supine chest press, shoulder press, lateral raise, biceps curl and overhead triceps extension. A repeated
measures ANOVA with post-hoc Tukey test was used to determine the influence of seated surface type on muscle activity for each muscle. Results & Discussion: There was no statistically significant (p<.05) difference in muscle activity between surface conditions. However, there was large degree of variability across subjects suggesting that some individuals respond differently to surface
stability. Conclusion: Selected trunk muscle activity during certain upper limb strength training exercises is not consistently influenced by the replacement of an exercise bench with a swiss ball.

Key words: EMG, exercise, spine stability, swiss balls, rehabilitation, low back pain



and here is another...



J Strength Cond Res. 2002 Aug;16(3):416-22.

Muscle force and activation under stable and unstable conditions.

Behm DG, Anderson K, Curnew RS.

School of Human Kinetics, Memorial University of Newfoundland

The objective of this study was to determine differences in isometric force output, muscle activation (interpolated twitch technique), and electromyographic activity of the quadriceps, plantar flexors (PF), and their antagonists under stable and unstable conditions. Instability in subjects was introduced by making them perform contractions while seated on a "Swiss ball." Eight male subjects performed unilateral leg extensor (LE) and PF contractions while seated on a bench (LE), chair (PF), or a ball. Unstable LE and PF forces were 70.5 and 20.2% less than their stable counterparts, respectively. Unstable quadriceps and PF activation averaged 44.3 and 2.9% less than activation under stable conditions. Unstable antagonist/agonist ratios were 40.2 and 30.7% greater than stable ratios in the LE and PF protocols, respectively. The greater decrements with LE can be attributed to the instability of only 2 points of floor contact, rather than 3 points of floor contact as with the PF. Swiss balls do not represent a viable method of training for strength or power given their inherant instability.


The first study merely concluded that swiss ball training works for some and not for others. Not exactly revolutionary or surprising. I doubt variables such as posture and position on the ball were properly controlled.

The second study does not address the effect on the core, which is the whole point of stability training.

Anybody who claims that stability training does not engage the core muscles more than working off of a stable platform has not done any proper instability training.

congratulations. I've been training for 3 years and I don't care about my maxes, I'm not a powerlifter. Scientists associated with Men's Health made a discovery. "Vibration Training" is a system which sends low-level frequencies through the body by means of a device attached to a platform, a bench, or free weights. The theory involves recruiting neural muscular fiber...some bullshit. Anyway, results. They found that using a vibrating dumbell to perform bicep curls in a single session of excercise to failure helped maintain muscle recruitment longer than normal. Doing squats on a vibrating platform improved strength gains in a 5 week study. I was just trying to reproduce these results at home, sorry for asking. Have you tried jump squats? Plyometric pushups? one legged squats? doing unilateral single arm barbell movements? I doubt it. Take my advice, for I know more training methods than you. I don't know everything, but I've convinced a lot of people on bullshido that I do. Your next.

I hope that's not an up to date picture in your profile, because you look a bit young(I have no room to talk, I'm 17), and your neck muscle look weak. Bulk them up jackass. Begin with either weighted neck excercises or neck bridges and such. I will further critique your figure in a moment.

A bit young, yes sir you are correct. I'm glad you have such awesome visual acuity and cognitive thinking skills. I am 22 and hoping to improve my strength and size. By asking what various routines are out there and evidence to support them suggests that I'm asking people who actually lift, have degrees in Exercise Science, or are personal trainers. What my initial post doesn't ask for is some rising senior in highschool's comments or ideas on training. Your mother might work extra hard at McDonald's to supply you with your favourite lunchables to impress your "alternative" buddies at school, but one thing she didn't instill in you is common sense. So go impress all your buddies over a round of Tekken 3 and Odoul's how much weight you can push, your inventive and cutting edge science of strength training and how you totally PWND some guy on a message board. When you come back to the real world, you'll realize that you don't know ****, your three malcontent highschool buddies don't know anything and that you're just an ignorant **** trying to make a name for himself on a mesage board. In essence you're a pathetic nutrag and when I want your opinion I'll rattle your cage.

Lawdog,

You bring up some good points...

There are volumes of other data which conclude with those studies. But actually, I am less concerned with the use of swiss balls for balance and core training as I am with those who claim that it is of good use for development of strength for the muscles being used dynamically, like slap nuts whose mom forgot to up his ritalin, who posted earlier....

Is it good for balance and coordination? Probably... But is it good for strength and power/ No, absolutely not...

It might help your arguments if you learned some grammar/syntax EDIT: Meant for baofuhaibo

In any case, now I'm quite curious, what do you mean by 'several years streetfighting', baofuhaibo?

It might help your arguments if you learned some grammar/syntax EDIT: Meant for baofuhaibo

In any case, now I'm quite curious, what do you mean by 'several years streetfighting', baofuhaibo?

He means he gets the **** kicked out of him by his older sister twice a week...

your forearms look big enough, but it looks as though your not doing enough for your shoulders. Try killing them. No, not that way, put down the knife. Do 10 of each:Front raise, lat raise(out to sides), L raise(bend arms until weights are vertical, level, then do lat raises), overhead press, high pull then bent over row. All with dumbells, unless you really want to be hardcore, then you can do it with two barbells(it's possible, trust me I've done it before) Be creative dammit, before I have to staple creativity into your uneven chest. Your nipples look like milk duds.



congratulations. I've been training for 3 years and I don't care about my maxes, I'm not a powerlifter. Scientists associated with Men's Health made a discovery. "Vibration Training" is a system which sends low-level frequencies through the body by means of a device attached to a platform, a bench, or free weights. The theory involves recruiting neural muscular fiber...some bullshit. Anyway, results. They found that using a vibrating dumbell to perform bicep curls in a single session of excercise to failure helped maintain muscle recruitment longer than normal. Doing squats on a vibrating platform improved strength gains in a 5 week study. I was just trying to reproduce these results at home, sorry for asking. Have you tried jump squats? Plyometric pushups? one legged squats? doing unilateral single arm barbell movements? I doubt it. Take my advice, for I know more training methods than you. I don't know everything, but I've convinced a lot of people on bullshido that I do. Your next.


Lateral Raises, DB Rows you say?!?! HOLY ****!!! You are a master of weight room creativity, someone give this man a cigar. He's come up with breakthrough new training methods.

Umm.. Vibration training. Fantastic. When I see the research, and the results across the board from professional lifters, I'll give it credence. Not until then. Men's Health... a truely scholarly publication. Have you indeed gotten that "ripped midsection" yet, or how about the 10 new ways to please your lady? Mastered those? Since you highschool kids are so knowledgeable and truly know the ins and outs of the entire world.

Plyometrics, yeah, I know all about those. I did those while at my highschool wrestling practice. Single leg squats. I do lunges instead with DB's.

Okay, let's think about "unilateral single arm barbell movement." Apparently your hands and arms are so huge you can stabilize the barbell during either the concentric or eccentric portion of your lift. Don't try to string together a bunch of terms your PE teacher tells you and throw that junk around here. It doesn't fly.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you mean either the superslow method from the eccentric portion of the lift or the eccentric portion of the lift in one explosive upwards movement. Superslow is a bs system. Explosive concentric movement should happen anyway in a "bilateral" system of lifting. (unless you're an HIIT 4/4 fan.) So you've been "training" since you were 14. This makes you the authority on weightlifting how? Have you published papers or done scientific studies? Oh wait, no, you haven't the closest you've probably come to an analysis of something is your book report on "Their Eyes Were Watching God."

I'm glad you have a fascination with my nipples. No doubt you reminsce of the days when you were held by your father as he watched "The Price is Right," and you longed to be breast fed by your mother who was slaving away in front of the deep fryers in the hopes that their would be an oil explosion to end her miserable existence and to put her out of her misery for having such a pathetic excuse for a son and marrying a man who no doubt walked out on her as he realized what an utter **** up he made and came to a brief moment of clarity in his life of alcoholism.

Lawdog,

You bring up some good points...

There are volumes of other data which conclude with those studies. But actually, I am less concerned with the use of swiss balls for balance and core training as I am with those who claim that it is of good use for development of strength for the muscles being used dynamically, like slap nuts whose mom forgot to up his ritalin, who posted earlier....

Is it good for balance and coordination? Probably... But is it good for strength and power/ No, absolutely not...

I agree they're 2 different things. Core strengthening through instability training is effective, but requires relatively light weight. I would obviously never be able to push anywhere near as much weight from an unstable platform as I could from a stable platform. It all depends upon your goals. Stability training is probably of little use for a bodybuilder or power lifter. However, for an olympic lifter it may be of some use. It's been extremely beneficial to me in both judo and to a lesser extent, boxiing.

Akira was pretty clear about his goals, so I won't hijack this thread with any more talk of core strength.