I have been meaning to make a thread on this, but I kept forgetting, so...


There has been mentioned of different "energy pathways" that the body uses when exercising / recovering from exercise.

As some know, HIT advocates HIGH INTENSTY TRAINING and serious rest to allow for your body to recover.
Many thing that its TOO much rest ( some HIT people only DO ST once a week).

There theory ( founded to an extent by the late, great Mike Mentzer) is that "everyday is a kidney day" and that your body does NOT know the difference from working out HARD on your legs on Monday and workign out HARD on your chest on Tuesday, it just knows that you are working out hard 2 days in a roll.

Also, when it comes to "other activites" your body, once again, can't tell the difference between a leg workout with weights on Thursday and a Heavy Bag routine with kicks up the yin-yang on Friday.

I believe it was TaeBoMaster who mentioned that the body uses different "energy pathways" for doing ST and doing MA, for example.

So tell me, how does this work ?

Once I get back from my lab, I'll crack open my Anatomy and Physiology textbook and see what I can dig up.

Phew! between ronin changing his name after the last movie he went to watch at the theater, and the words "energy pathways", I beleived this was a thread about ki flowing or some **** like that.

Your body has three energy pathways that are constantly running. The one that is utilized is the one that will be most efficient for the activity that you are doing.

The first is the ATP-PC system, also called the phosphocreatine or creatine system. It is good from the initiation of an activity for about 10-12 seconds (depending on whose research you read!) This system puts ATP back together after it has been cleaved for energy. Production of ATP is the goal for all of the energy systems, they just have different ways of doing it. When ATP is cleaved for energy, it looks like this: ATP > ADP + P + energy. The energy is used for whatever you are doing, and the ADP and P must be put back together. Phosphocreatine does this in the following way: ADP + P + PC > ATP + P.

The second system is the lactic acid or glycolytic system. This system creates ATP that is used for energy through a much more chemically complex process. It is used for activities generally lasting from 10 seconds to about 3 minutes.

The final system, and the one that is utilized the majority of the time, is the aerobic system. This system kicks in after about 2 or 3 minutes and lasts as long as oxygen is present.

A good way to think of the last two systems is with a money analogy. The lactic acid system is like a credit card in that you can get the goods (energy) on the front end, but you will pay after the activity in the form of being out of breath, heavy breathing, etc.

The aerobic system is a "cash" system, where you will get the energy if and only if you have the cash (oxygen) to get it going.

You would use the systems interchangeably in the following manner:

Assume you drive a jeep and are sitting in your office one day. As you sit at your desk surfing Bullshido.com, you are using the aerobic system. You hear rain outside and realize that you have to go put up the top on the jeep. In order to get up out of the chair, you utilize the ATP-PC system, the run down stairs and across the parking lot uses the anaerobic system, and then you will revert back to aerobic.

Your body has three energy pathways that are constantly running. The one that is utilized is the one that will be most efficient for the activity that you are doing.

The first is the ATP-PC system, also called the phosphocreatine or creatine system. It is good from the initiation of an activity for about 10-12 seconds (depending on whose research you read!) This system puts ATP back together after it has been cleaved for energy. Production of ATP is the goal for all of the energy systems, they just have different ways of doing it. When ATP is cleaved for energy, it looks like this: ATP > ADP + P + energy. The energy is used for whatever you are doing, and the ADP and P must be put back together. Phosphocreatine does this in the following way: ADP + P + PC > ATP + P.

The second system is the lactic acid or glycolytic system. This system creates ATP that is used for energy through a much more chemically complex process. It is used for activities generally lasting from 10 seconds to about 3 minutes.

The final system, and the one that is utilized the majority of the time, is the aerobic system. This system kicks in after about 2 or 3 minutes and lasts as long as oxygen is present.

A good way to think of the last two systems is with a money analogy. The lactic acid system is like a credit card in that you can get the goods (energy) on the front end, but you will pay after the activity in the form of being out of breath, heavy breathing, etc.

The aerobic system is a "cash" system, where you will get the energy if and only if you have the cash (oxygen) to get it going.

You would use the systems interchangeably in the following manner:

Assume you drive a jeep and are sitting in your office one day. As you sit at your desk surfing Bullshido.com, you are using the aerobic system. You hear rain outside and realize that you have to go put up the top on the jeep. In order to get up out of the chair, you utilize the ATP-PC system, the run down stairs and across the parking lot uses the anaerobic system, and then you will revert back to aerobic.


Interesting, now, how do those pathways effect the body? muscles and organs ?

The body utilizes different biochemical energy paths or sources depending on the intesity and duraction of an activity. It is actually a progression through the systems as the body does not know at the begining of an activity how long it will last. They can be broadly broken down into Anaerobic (short intense activity) and Aerobic (endurance activity) systems. The anaerobic system can be broken down little more specifically to ATP-Creatine/phosphate and glycolytic paths. The ATP based energy paths account for about the first minute of activity. The glycolytic paths pick up around 1 minute and begin to transition to aerboic around 3-4 minutes. Aerobic energy pathway then takes over for the remainder of the activity.

Since in ST, the body is typically under load for 30-60 seconds (time for a set) the anaerobic systems are fueling the action. It will take several minutes to re-load the ATP system after each set. Part of the reason why recovery time bewteen sets is important.

Which system dominates in MA training will depends on the training. If you take a match or sparring time frame (3-5 minutes followed by a rest), the intermediate glycoltic path would get the most of the work.

If the question gets extended to rest and recovery, it depends on what you are trying to accomplish and what activity you are recovering from. During your rest/recovery the body is trying to reload the various energy systems, repair/grow the muslces and recover the CNS. Each of those recovery steps have different time associated with them. CNS recovery takes the longest but is really only a concern if very intese work was done such as near max loads in ST. It is true that the body can't tell the difference between MA and ST for certain aspects of recovery (with certain variable held constant) such as refueling. But other areas there is a difference. As an example, you could run 3 miles 3-4 times a week with no ill effects on training. But could you imagine doing a near max load squat day 3 times a week and still making progress?

Phew! between ronin changing his name after the last movie he went to watch at the theater, and the words "energy pathways", I beleived this was a thread about ki flowing or some **** like that.

Yeah, it's about chi. But instead of saying "chi meridians" we have "energy pathways"

Same thing basically. :new_uklia

Yeah, it's about chi. But instead of saying "chi meridians" we have "energy pathways"

Same thing basically. :new_uklia


You are pure evil.

The body utilizes different biochemical energy paths or sources depending on the intesity and duraction of an activity. It is actually a progression through the systems as the body does not know at the begining of an activity how long it will last. They can be broadly broken down into Anaerobic (short intense activity) and Aerobic (endurance activity) systems. The anaerobic system can be broken down little more specifically to ATP-Creatine/phosphate and glycolytic paths. The ATP based energy paths account for about the first minute of activity. The glycolytic paths pick up around 1 minute and begin to transition to aerboic around 3-4 minutes. Aerobic energy pathway then takes over for the remainder of the activity.

Since in ST, the body is typically under load for 30-60 seconds (time for a set) the anaerobic systems are fueling the action. It will take several minutes to re-load the ATP system after each set. Part of the reason why recovery time bewteen sets is important.

Which system dominates in MA training will depends on the training. If you take a match or sparring time frame (3-5 minutes followed by a rest), the intermediate glycoltic path would get the most of the work.

If the question gets extended to rest and recovery, it depends on what you are trying to accomplish and what activity you are recovering from. During your rest/recovery the body is trying to reload the various energy systems, repair/grow the muslces and recover the CNS. Each of those recovery steps have different time associated with them. CNS recovery takes the longest but is really only a concern if very intese work was done such as near max loads in ST. It is true that the body can't tell the difference between MA and ST for certain aspects of recovery (with certain variable held constant) such as refueling. But other areas there is a difference. As an example, you could run 3 miles 3-4 times a week with no ill effects on training. But could you imagine doing a near max load squat day 3 times a week and still making progress?


See, the thing is, lets take bag work, wither you do 2 or 3 minute rounds, you really aren't doing 2-3 minutes of constant punching/kicking, you do a few combos that are SUPPOSE to be done in less than 3-5 seconds, so...
Even though you do 10 rounds of 3 min with 1 min breaks, what pathways are you using?

You would be using ATP-PC for each combo and anaerobic for the underlying intensity level. As you cool down between rounds, you will tend to move back toward the aerobic level, but probably not reach it. The "Talk/Sing" method is often used to determine which pathway you are primarily using. If you can talk conherently, i.e. conversationally, you are using the aerobic pathway, if you can't, then it is one of the other two.

Ok, lets say I did a HIT workout for my chest and other "pushing muscles" on Monday, and I do a Heavy Bag workout on Tuesday.

How will that effect my chest, triceps and shoulder muslces and their recovery from the HIT workout the day before ?

You are now talking about two different things. The energy pathways deal with your body's ability to provide oxygen to the working muscles. You are now talking about recovery and repair of exercise induced microtrauma. That is "fixed" by dietary macronutrients, primarily protein. The most recovery occurs during the aerobic system or rest period, simply because you are likely under PNS or parasympathetic nervous system control, otherwise known as the "rest and digest" system. This system is opposite of the SNS or sympathetic which is usually known as "fight or flight". While under PNS control, your body takes care of its "housekeeping" duties such as digestion or in the case of your example, muscle repair or bone remodeling. This is why high intensity training on a daily basis results in a greater likelihood of injury because your body is not allowed to go back and fix stuff, rather it is in a constant excitatory state.

You are now talking about two different things. The energy pathways deal with your body's ability to provide oxygen to the working muscles. You are now talking about recovery and repair of exercise induced microtrauma. That is "fixed" by dietary macronutrients, primarily protein. The most recovery occurs during the aerobic system or rest period, simply because you are likely under PNS or parasympathetic nervous system control, otherwise known as the "rest and digest" system. This system is opposite of the SNS or sympathetic which is usually known as "fight or flight". While under PNS control, your body takes care of its "housekeeping" duties such as digestion or in the case of your example, muscle repair or bone remodeling. This is why high intensity training on a daily basis results in a greater likelihood of injury because your body is not allowed to go back and fix stuff, rather it is in a constant excitatory state.

Doesn't answer the question.

What does the HIT workout consist of?

High Intensity Training has about as many 'experts' as Chi advocates. To put it simply, the HIT workout is to work your muscles (or whatever) very hard in a short period of time. Much harder than a normal workout. Experts disagree on exactly how to do this. Suffice to say HIT training is too intense to do every day. Your body will break down. So you maximize the effects with rest days and low intensity days.

Now what is a HIT program exactly? Different things for different people. For example I have a HIT running day. I go to a track and run 1 mile at 8mph. Then I hit sprints in a HIIT format. Incredible exertion in short periods. Then a short rest and then exertion again. I go to the point of absolute exhaustion. Then I do it again. Then I cool down.

If I did this running program everyday I would have injuries. So I do it maybe 2-3 a month. The rest of the month I do maybe 2 runs a week of 3-6 miles at a nice 8mph pace.

Now weight trainers all have this exact science of what is the BEST way to maximize gains. The reality is everyone is different and responds differently. A 60 year old mans HIT program will look drastically different than an 18 year olds. Get the picture? Now factor in the results you are looking for and you will realize there is no 'RIGHT' HIT program.

I've heard it all. One guy says 3 sets to exhaustion 30 seconds rest and then 3 sets to exhaustion on the opposing muscle group. Another guy says nononono that won't work. You only need 1 exhaustion set, at the end of your regular sets. No rest between exersizes and definately don't do opposing muscle groups on the same day! While another will say the HIT guru's started on nautilus equipment and they say...blah blah blah. Ahhh stfu all of you. Train like a fuckin madman 1 day a week. Have a rest day. Then do some low intensity training. Figure it out for yourself.

What does this have to do with energy pathways? I have no idea.

I have one energy pathway. It begins in my mouth, travels down through my stomach into the intestines, and ends up at my asshole.

High Intensity Training has about as many 'experts' as Chi advocates. To put it simply, the HIT workout is to work your muscles (or whatever) very hard in a short period of time. Much harder than a normal workout. Experts disagree on exactly how to do this. Suffice to say HIT training is too intense to do every day. Your body will break down. So you maximize the effects with rest days and low intensity days.

Now what is a HIT program exactly? Different things for different people. For example I have a HIT running day. I go to a track and run 1 mile at 8mph. Then I hit sprints in a HIIT format. Incredible exertion in short periods. Then a short rest and then exertion again. I go to the point of absolute exhaustion. Then I do it again. Then I cool down.

If I did this running program everyday I would have injuries. So I do it maybe 2-3 a month. The rest of the month I do maybe 2 runs a week of 3-6 miles at a nice 8mph pace.

Now weight trainers all have this exact science of what is the BEST way to maximize gains. The reality is everyone is different and responds differently. A 60 year old mans HIT program will look drastically different than an 18 year olds. Get the picture? Now factor in the results you are looking for and you will realize there is no 'RIGHT' HIT program.

I've heard it all. One guy says 3 sets to exhaustion 30 seconds rest and then 3 sets to exhaustion on the opposing muscle group. Another guy says nononono that won't work. You only need 1 exhaustion set, at the end of your regular sets. No rest between exersizes and definately don't do opposing muscle groups on the same day! While another will say the HIT guru's started on nautilus equipment and they say...blah blah blah. Ahhh stfu all of you. Train like a fuckin madman 1 day a week. Have a rest day. Then do some low intensity training. Figure it out for yourself.

What does this have to do with energy pathways? I have no idea.

I have one energy pathway. It begins in my mouth, travels down through my stomach into the intestines, and ends up at my asshole.


HIT is simple, no matter which set/rep.rest scheme you follow, the principle is the same:
Train a specific muscle group to failure.


The issue of recovery is vital, especially if you add another type of workout to your regime, in this case MA.

My questions is simple:
How does ST AND MA effect recovery and what does the energy pathways have to do with it?

Obviously doing a squat workout and the next day running a marathon will negate all your ST, and doing a squat workout and doing taiji the next day will do nothing, but what about the inbetween?