No offense to this poster, but this is what I love about the martial arts. Everyone obssesed with pedigree and credentials instead of "does or does it not work." It's not like this **** is calculus and we are building 747s here. This unarmed combat, what works for one, may not work for another. Who gives a **** about credentials? The World Sokeship Family whatever is full of assholes with credentials.

Daniel Marks takes the history and culture of the 52s very seriously and was concerned that TRS/Mr. Frazier were misrepresenting the art. Whether or not the material presented in their DVD was effective unarmed combat is another issue and AFAIK Daniel didn't address that in his communication with TRS; he was specifically challenging Diallo Franzier's credentials as an instructor of the 52 Blocks.

For whatever reason, TRS immediately withdrew the DVD from circulation before issuing it again under a different title. They also spun the story in their promotional material for the re-released DVD, representing Daniel's communication with them as being "threatened by OGs for revealing the secrets of the 52s".

I mean no disrespect. It's just, IMHO, martial artist take this stuff far too seriously. It's like the Kali people, they act as though they invented knife fighting and try to debate the merits of other knife fighting styles and you get told that you are *insert explative*. :read2: The fact is this is a great hobby and it is good to know unarmed and armed fighting techniques, but it is just that a hobby and a practical tool.

You don't read about woodworkers ragging someone elses way of carving. People need to relax.

I mean no disrespect. It's just, IMHO, martial artist take this stuff far too seriously. It's like the Kali people, they act as though they invented knife fighting and try to debate the merits of other knife fighting styles and you get told that you are *insert explative*. :read2: The fact is this is a great hobby and it is good to know unarmed and armed fighting techniques, but it is just that a hobby and a practical tool.

You don't read about woodworkers ragging someone elses way of carving. People need to relax.

No offense taken, I'm just suggesting that priorities are individualistic; one man's hobby interest is another's life's work, etc. In Daniel's case, he's literally spent decades tracking down and training with practitioners of the 52 Blocks and his FWAPE organization is promoting the 52s as a way to turn young African-American men away from drugs and gangs. He sees it as an important manifestation of his own culture, so it's more than just a hobby to him.

No offense taken, I'm just suggesting that priorities are individualistic; one man's hobby interest is another's life's work, etc. In Daniel's case, he's literally spent decades tracking down and training with practitioners of the 52 Blocks and his FWAPE organization is promoting the 52s as a way to turn young African-American men away from drugs and gangs. He sees it as an important manifestation of his own culture, so it's more than just a hobby to him.

Good, because I intended no offense toward you. Please, allow me to elaborate. I respect that Daniel's has spent years on the history of his chosen art. I wish more people would study the broader history of the martial arts then there would be far less nutriding.

Back to my original point. If someone has a useful technique or set of techniques, what difference does it make if he learned them from a book, a video, or master in the swamps of Dagobah! If it is useful and he or she is not claiming they have a 10th dan in five arts who cares.

Chris Clugston comes to mind. Chomrac Bas, the lethal art of gladiator fluffing. He has a few useful points (although anti-grappling is dubious at best) yet he felt the need to create this ridiculous background and alleged skill in 11 languages.

What I am getting at is, study the useful stuff, don't worry about what the alleged masters say, and train hard! Sparring, grappling, and conditioning are more important than any gimmick! :eusa_danc

from what i get is 52 blocks is a watered down ghetto version of hungar kung fu and bagua.

i just dont like how some peeps talk about it an promote like its some ultimate style from the hood.

everytime i observe guys sparring using 52s, they look like a couple of drunk females slap boxing each other on a friday night outside the club

The martial mix of the time period when NYC 52 came about was, in many way -related to those who had street game, a smattering of training under some names like Powell, Cofield, Vee and Papa D.

Some Pete Urban thrown in - and whatever seemed to work - and shared the stuff with other inmates.

When you actually have to live 24/7 behind bars - you have a lot of time to come up with something.

I have seen various methods of playing chess under odd rules that are not the norm.

And a very wild bolo punch or bitch slap can shut down an attacker - if they had never experienced this before. 'Slap boxing' is a fairly common thing - and can earn an inmate a certain form of respect from other inmates. They simply do not want to **** with something beyond their ken.

73 pages on this subject.

Look, jail house fighting is a collection of a lot of things- some work in situationals - in the environment of the venue. Much like sportive things do - under the confines of a certain restrictive set of rules and ring.

In the early days, there was a saying from (I think G. Cofiield or Powell) - "You can call this garbage technique - but if you put enough garbage in a bag and drop it on someone from the top of a building - it is gonna hurt"!
Another way of saying - throw enough **** at a wall and some of it will stick".

I know, that reads as being unfair to some.

BUT - ever see two totally untrained dudes 'fight' in front of a bar?

After they are wasted?

Although comical, often - eventually by chance and circumstance - one of them hammers the other out! And rarely -they actually do so with a fine movement! It is amazing.

Is that really 'fighting' much less a martial art?
*****

In jail/prison - the combatants will do many things - the diverse ends of the set is this...if you are a hated target - the attacker will most probably use an improvised weapon - a few lumps of jail issued soap in a sock to bust your skull, or even a poking/slashing shank - maybe a mop wringer - or - slap/fist dance in mostly wild upper body motions - right in front of 'the bubble' ....knowing the staff will interrupt before any real damage is done or suffered. And then they scream out trash talk at each other.

Very *yawn* impressive - until you have seen it dozens of times.
In 22 years of NYC Corrections - I have seen very few that exhibit trained movement...I would say, right now - less than 10.

MOST were trained to box...and did so very efficiently. Kept themselves in hard shape and went to the rec yard with one purpose - to train.

A few could kick and use their hands also.

THE overwhelming majority - when meaning to really eliminate a person - used a form of weapon.
******

22 years ago, I saw and spoke with a few that had a rep for 52 - these were old dogs - and they really became safe by living off a street rep. saw them talk alot and demo - but never saw one challenged - - the security of legend, maybe.


Scaring the **** out of the house by doing odd little dance/katas...and could quote the 80's Saturday Morning Kung Fu theater - on old Channel 5 - and steal some rep from the unknowing.
****

Inmates will teach each other all sorts of things....things they figured out - things they learned from an old school 'dog'.

The soap in a sock...how to make a stabbing weapon out of the wrapper from a cigarette foil - how to make hooch or pass through a magnometer with contraband weapons. How to cook a slim jim on a metal toilet seat by using the light socket and personal stero wire.

TONS of stuff!
Jail house knowledge, but hardly the 52.
*****
DdlR -
Mr. Marks might be as genuine in his beliefs as you have stated. He might be trying to inspire kids with a martial method - but, it is a method (that I largely feel is a myth and hype) - unproven to have actually ever existed, in other than stories. The whore with a heart of gold...SuperFly/Ghetto Robin Hood type of things.

I would rather see the kids doing Capoiera - that is at least as effective a barehanded method as any clip or soundbite I ever found for 52 - FAR more genuine than the 52 I saw demo-ed in the 80's.

And I have seen so many kids that can not even write their name - but believe the BS of Fitty Cent...and Tupac...and cling to that like this is a way to live a fruitful life. Pimpin for life?

Bullshit. Seen far to many adolescents and young men of many cultures- drown in the gangsta's paradise. Yeah - it is socio-economic on many levels - nurture - not nature.

Jail House Rock and 52 are not a martial art - they are a conglomeration of the nasty **** that can happen behind bars....mixed in with partial students of martial arts and flavored with race, color and kung fu/ Segal movies. Yeah, throw enough at the wall and some sticks - but it still smells.

I would rather a more cultural investigation of Capoiera - or Kantu - than a legend born in an environment of modern incarceration and supposed 'street cred'.

Mr. Marks might actually have something going on....but, I can not say with total certainty - I do know nor may never see a session with the kids - but, have you?

In real time?

Oh damn - NOT in a TRS or video - a real time, unannounced show up at a session - as a stranger? In off the cuff, real time?

I would be interested to know.

Hi Rob,

with respect, because I do value your experience and imput, we've already discussed these points at great, painstaking length.

My considered opinion is that what Daniel and his associates are trying to do with the 52s is equivalent to what Bimba and others did for capoeira all those years ago, or even what Kano did for ko-ryu jujitsu. They are taking the "best" of an old-school fighting skill and organizing it towards a socially positive goal.

Daniel is ex-career Army, a longtime martial artist and a man with a sincere interest in helping kids to stay out of trouble. He has already managed to document the oral history of the 52s via his "Break the Glass" DVD and is now attempting to bring a new dimension to the 52 Blocks.

Direct quote from the FWAPE.com site:


The preservation and dissemination of 52 Blocks is critical in light of its cultural importance and its potential to steer African-American men to more positive futures, by fomenting physical health and discipline and connecting practitioners with support networks and resources. African-American males need fitness, fraternity and support systems, today more than ever. The need for fitness is demonstrated by health statistics showing a surge in obesity, heart disease, hypertension and cancers among Black men, who in some urban areas, suffer life expectancies characteristic of third world countries.

The need for greater inter communication, and positive models for Black male interaction and bonding becomes dramatically clear, when evidencing the astronomical rate of Black-on-Black male violence as well the absence of Black fathers in almost half of Black households. Finally, the need for more support and assistance with social and economic reintegration is tragically underscored by a criminal offender re-arrest rate of more than 50% within 5 years. FWAPE will address these economic and social hurdles of men trying to rebuild their lives after prison, improving health outcomes, providing role models and support systems, and facilitating social and economic reintegration. At the same time, FWAPE’s benefit will extend beyond these individual men to entire communities, by providing education and cultural enrichment about the practice of 52 blocks.

As I've said before, I think that this is a noble project and that it deserves support and understanding.

Lofty goals - and I wish him all the luck in the world.

It could go in many directions, of course. The same has been attempted before - with varying degrees of success, using everything from TMA, boxing, acting/theatre.

Time will tell.

I think one of the reasons why they may be trying to preserve this is because brawlers are like... a dying breed. I grew up on this stuff but the kids nowadays, a lot of them don't see it. Too many young boys don't know how to fight.

When they can't fight or they don't have that mental conditioning that helps them get out of situations...

What do they do?
They reach for their guns.

They don't grow up brawling because too many people carry irons.
It's like a huge generational gap.

Anybody can pick up a gun and point it at somebody.
But when you're actually using your hands against another person, it builds up your character. Helps your mental game.
___

Hmmm...

I think what I'm trying to describe is a mentality that's like OG.

We didn't have gangs in our area when I was young so I'm not talking about being an actual gangster. It's just having that mentality like a warrior.

Kids don't have that any more.

Back when people brawled, there was honor, ethics, codes.

Most of the people I fought against eventually became my friends and family.
Respect was earned.

Hard to do that after you pump a slug in somebody.
___

These people yall talking about... I don't have any idea who they are. I stumbled across the youtube video and it just looked real familiar to me. I did my research and ended up here.

I think one of the reasons why they may be trying to preserve this is because brawlers are like... a dying breed. I grew up on this stuff but the kids nowadays, a lot of them don't see it. Too many young boys don't know how to fight.

When they can't fight or they don't have that mental conditioning that helps them get out of situations...

What do they do?
They reach for their guns.

They don't grow up brawling because too many people carry irons.
It's like a huge generational gap.

Anybody can pick up a gun and point it at somebody.
But when you're actually using your hands against another person, it builds up your character. Helps your mental game.

The same sentiment has been expressed by a lot of old-school (1970s/early '80s) practitioners of the 52s in video interviews and occasional online posts.

I am a bit confused. How did all of these style with different names, and regions, get linked?

The ONLY factual statement in this entire thread.... It's amusing to observe the comments on subjects we do not understand.

The ONLY factual statement in this entire thread.... It's amusing to observe the comments on subjects we do not understand.

Really? 74 pages, over 730 posts, and only one factual statement to be found?

Could it be that you're exaggerating for effect?

The ONLY factual statement in this entire thread.... It's amusing to observe the comments on subjects we do not understand.

...that was a question, not a statement.
Talking out of your ass much, you deluded ****?

WOW a keyboard assassin...:qright7: LOL. Don't worry forgiveness is a healing energy ...

WOW a keyboard assassin...:qright7: LOL. Don't worry forgiveness is a healing energy ...

Right. Shouldn't you be in school right now?

"It's amusing to observe the comments on subjects we do not understand."
Translated: "I refuse to accept any belief outside of my own as possible, and I try to defend my position by calling others ignorant, although I seem to have just brushed off the fact that it is, in fact, my position that is harder to prove is the more accurate one. I also like to pretend that I'm deep, philosophical, and asian, but I don't realize that I sound like a pre-teen suburban white boy."

Right. The water always finds its level...