You don't take an academics word for something. You check his research in a peer reviewed scholarly journal.

Tom has an ongoing research project re. the 52 Hand Blocks (both as urban mythology and as a fighting style) but it isn't ready for publication yet. In the short term, though, he has an excellent essay on this subject entitled ""Surviving the Middle Passage: Traditional African Martial Arts in the Americas", which specifically details the 52 hand Blocks/Jail House Rock.

As background, it's also well worth reading another of his essays, "Freeing the Afrikan Mind: the Role of Martial Arts in Contemporary African American Cultural Nationalism". Both articles are available in the book "Martial Arts in the Modern World" (2004) by Praeger Publishing/Greenwood Press - http://www.greenwood.com/catalog/C8153.aspx .

Jailhouse bullshit + urban myth + repetition/time X 1 Rap Song = The 52 blocks aka Jailhouse rock(s).
And until one presents more than a few moments of crappy bigfoot footage.....AFAIC, this subject is as useful as a yeti scalp.

Rob,

as I mentioned earlier, BrotherD (who contributed to this thread the first time around) lives in NYC, considers himself to be a practitioner of the old school 52s, and once offered to meet up with you - not to fight, but to talk and demo. I don't know if that offer still stands as he made it about a year ago, but I've invited him back here now that the thread has revived, so maybe you'll get to meet Bigfoot after all.

Almost everyone agrees that there is a great deal of urban mythology attached to the 52s, so the real issue seems to be sorting out the history, as I made a rough effort to do much earlier in the thread, and separating fact from fiction.

The only matter we actually disagree on is that, to you, this means that 52 "is actually nothing", whereas to me, it means that 52 is a semi-codified fighting style. The main difference between 52 and suburban kiddy-ninjas is that 52 was, by all accounts, developed by people who know a thing or three about real fighting.
I disagree, thats also a myth and stereotype.



Tom has an ongoing research project re. the 52 Hand Blocks (both as urban mythology and as a fighting style) but it isn't ready for publication yet. In the short term, though, he has an excellent essay on this subject entitled ""Surviving the Middle Passage: Traditional African Martial Arts in the Americas", which specifically details the 52 hand Blocks/Jail House Rock.

Wait 52 isn't a martial art as you say but its sure being treated as one by Tom Green.

Is 52/JHR the Systema for African Americans!?!?!?!:laughing1

Asia,

as I said, "by all accounts" - discounting Internet message board posts and private emails, although they are a major source of information at this stage of the game, that leaves us with Doug Century's book and Tom Green's research and essays, all of which present the 52s as having been developed by people who know how to fight.

You ought to read Tom's essays before you make too many assumptions about them. They deal with a number of African-derived MAs that took root in the Americas, *as well as* the 52 Hand Blocks/JHR. The references to African MAs in the essay titles are specific to Capoeira, Mani (Cuba), Ladjia/danmye (Martinique), etc. He never refers to 52/JHR as a martial art, only as a "street system".

1) I am aware of Green's work. I've read his material before, especially on Capoeria.

2) Just because he doesn't specefically call it a MA doesn't mean its isn't treated as one. Capoeira was a "street system" as well with no real ciriculum until much later. If you read Tom and Joe's work you'd know that.:lol:

3) Without something showing guys using it in an effective manner against pple we only have pple world for it and as Matt as stated and as I and many others probably can attest to personally inmates, thugs, gangstas, etc tend to exaggerate their skill level. Which is why I call it a myth and stereotype.

1) I am aware of Green's work. I've read his material before, especially on Capoeria.

2) Just because he doesn't specefically call it a MA doesn't mean its isn't treated as one. Capoeira was a "street system" as well with no real ciriculum until much later. If you read Tom and Joe's work you'd know that.

3) Without something showing guys using it in an effective manner against pple we only have pple world for it and as Matt as stated and as I and many others probably can attest to personally inmates, thugs, gangstas, etc tend to exaggerate their skill level. Which is why I call it a myth and stereotype.

1) Well done. Have you also read his essay in "Martial Arts in the Modern World", specifically detailing his research into 52/JHR (?)

2) I have read Tom's and Joe's work, and corresponded with both of them, in some depth, for many years. I've also made exactly that point (re. Capoeira being a "street system" that became fully codified much later), a number of times, in this very thread. That is precisely why I keep comparing the 52s to early Capoeira and savate.

3) Massive deja-vu; the same points made and answered when this thread first emerged keep re-appearing now. Once again, there is absolutely no doubt that there is a great deal of urban mythology attached to the 52s. No question at all. That is a large part of why Tom Green and Joe Svinth, as a professional anthropologist and historian, respectively, are interested in this subject. It's a major part of my own interest as well. As I said just a few posts ago, the real task is to sort out fact from fiction.

I'm as suburban as they come and have no trouble finding and speaking with genuine black criminals.
Suburban as the come sure, but you're still black. You think white boy or asian guy could get as far? Maybe.

Tom has an ongoing research project re. the 52 Hand Blocks (both as urban mythology and as a fighting style) but it isn't ready for publication yet. In the short term, though, he has an excellent essay on this subject entitled ""Surviving the Middle Passage: Traditional African Martial Arts in the Americas", which specifically details the 52 hand Blocks/Jail House Rock.

As background, it's also well worth reading another of his essays, "Freeing the Afrikan Mind: the Role of Martial Arts in Contemporary African American Cultural Nationalism". Both articles are available in the book "Martial Arts in the Modern World" (2004) by Praeger Publishing/Greenwood Press - http://www.greenwood.com/catalog/C8153.aspx .

If Tom can't produce a single live practicioner then he's limited to arguing that its a "dead art". So either there is some very good reason no one is on tape, the art is dead, or it never existed. I'll go with B or C as being more likely. Funny, when people write about small filipeno stick fighting arts they don't have problems finding at least one instructor. I seriously smell bullshit here.

Greetings ddlR...
What can I add that hasn't already been said. It's has if we cry BS enough then cats will get upset and say see I told you it's real, Only to have naysayer’s say yeah but I bet it can't be so system. Whatever You can't please everybody
and I'm not going to try. Truth is I like the way guys on this forum critique.
You guys are very knowledgeable so I understand why you keep batting your eyes on this topic...
1. There is more than one style of Boxing, and as it goes Blacks have been boxing in this country since 1700's and longer. What ever the fight was we did it.
But I'll take what is documented.

2. There are plenty of fighting styles that are not classified as MA (Asian MA).
So why be surprise to see some thing that doesn’t fit that paradigm?

3. What should 52 look like? Should it look like Kung Fu or Karate or any other excepted MA or fighting style?... Name the fighters the changed the landscape of Boxing, and Jack Johnson is on the List. There were others but he made an impact that’s why he’s there.

But what of Sam Lamfort? Jack didn’t want to fight him anymore I wonder why.
Any way At first site 52 seems to flashing (dirty boxing ) and Bad Kung fu
And on top of that it’s just not real….
Ok…
Let me start here

What makes a system a Martial Art? Martial implies military and does some knowledge of warfare. This tells me that when people engaged in battle they were not fighting with their bare hands. And if this is true as I believe then this makes since (Ogun god of Iron, the path finder, weapon two Machete) (Shango god of war weapon two Battle axes).

(Ochosie the Hunter god of the forest weapon bow an arrow) (Oya goddess of the storm, wind weapon whip) (Yemaya Goddess water) I didn’t want to leave her out…

There are hundreds if not thousand of example of these forces and what they represent. To believe in something is to have knowledge of a thing that’s not faith. These forces of nature exist in all of our spiritual system from East, Central and West Africa… They followed us here to the Diaspora. We still celebrate (Dance and Rejoice in their Honor) Read Dr. Farris Thomas Book “Flash in the (or ) of the Spirit) as well as his essays on Bantu Culture and the Diaspora.

All of our dances come from our belief and culture that is why we move that way we move we live it. Not everyone , but anyway Breaking = Kalinda traces of the this Mock fight go back to New Orleans late 1800’s, as the style here followed a new swing the old style was still practice in the Voodun culture of the Caribbean ( Cuba, Trinidad\ Tobago, Jamaica Haiti and the list goes on.) Kalinda like Candomble, and Santeria , other systems like Palo and Lukima (sp) all carry more than just belief.

They are our culture dances like the Samba Mambo Lindy Hop, our walk bebop, and hip hop is all what we did then and what we do now. 52 comes from this…So if this is bs then there is nothing else to say
peace

Video tape of more then 3 seconds, say 10-15 minutes, of someone who is instructor caliber in 52 Hand Blocks. Why can't anyone produce this?

“The 52 has no more substance than the urban legend of Superfly. Or the pimp with a heart of gold. Slapboxing and hippitty hoppity, mixed in with Sat. morning kung fu theater on NYC's channel 5 - back in the days.....does not create anything substantial, The Wu Tang sang a story....and its only one form of urban legend in the inner city. “

Wow this is right out of the 70’s which was the hey day for 52 it’s true that a lot of the gang banger of that time who didn’t know how to fight took to MA and Movies
Other than real fighting the only fantasy stuff was Kung fu movies. But that’s not what’s going on in 52, Nobody wanted to believe breaking wasn’t ripping off KF movies until they saw Capoeria then people said that breaking was a rip off of that too. Same Mother
Different Farther but this has been researched and documented Dr Thompson, and Dr. Ed Powe and others. The West African Strongman Dance from Mandingo tribe. www.AfricaWrites.com.

As it goes slapboxing is a whole other thing when it’s played for real and those that know me know what I mean. It’s a shame because it a great art form. Pimps were not just cheap hustlers for those that know their history Salomon was a pimp he was the Don. We go back a long way… but that’s another story as it relates to 52 straight razor. This too is documented

First off I have tape, and I have demo 52 for Jason Coach the mod on MMA.tv history forum... He was going to post but he's a lawyer and he was busy.
I was going to show Stickgrappler we never hooked up...
I live in Staten Island and I'm not hard to find
I have hours of info, but then again I could be just make ish up
peace

“Jailhouse bullshit + urban myth + repetition/time X 1 Rap Song = The 52 blocks aka Jailhouse rock(s).
And until one presents more than a few moments of crappy bigfoot footage.....AFAIC, this subject is as useful as a yeti scalp.”
Don’t think so but I understand why you say it hint Meth was doing 52 in his video the whole time. Plus in the 100 rounds video it was done… But since you can not see it through you’re paradigm it will never be real you or it will always look like something else. I would go on and try to explain that but I doubt I could get by with it. It’s a give and take
peace

Let me see if I got you right I'm suppose to let somebody I don't know dud my tape. to prove something that cats don't want to believe right.
How about you make the trip to see me and I'll show it to you.
this way you can be judge and jury... Come into Newark and I'll pick you up.
peace

If Tom can't produce a single live practicioner then he's limited to arguing that its a "dead art". So either there is some very good reason no one is on tape, the art is dead, or it never existed. I'll go with B or C as being more likely. Funny, when people write about small filipeno stick fighting arts they don't have problems finding at least one instructor. I seriously smell bullshit here.

SB,

whether or not the 52s/JHR exist is not an issue for Tom Green. He's met and trained with practitioners of the style, including Dennis Newsome. I don't think that proving its existence to members of this forum is high on his priority list. He has a professional interest in the style and is concerned with researching and documenting it at the academic level.

That said, as we mentioned much earlier in this thread, the 52s would make a dynamite subject for a serious documentary. There has actually been some talk about that elsewhere within the past year.

Now that BrotherD has joined the conversation again, you have the chance to question a man who is, to the very best of my knowledge, a genuine, living, breathing representative of the old-school 52s.

Yes. This xenophobia you speak of is a myth. There's white 5 Percenters, white NOI, white Panthers, white Vice Lords, white BGD, what have you. Not only were there white men in all these organizations, but they often tend to be (in)famous enough to hold a little status. Now, thats not to say you can just drag your dorky ass into the hood straight from the IT department, but its not impossible to infiltrate black criminal culture. In prison, yeh, I'd imagine it'd be damn near impossible, but finding someone on the outside shouldn't be that hard.

I can confirm that. The only time I've seen this stuff in action was a training session with my brother in law, who is white and has never been to prison, but who was the leader of a Chicago street gang during the '80s. He hadn't heard the phrases "52 Hand Blocks" or "Jailhouse Rock" before but when I described what I knew of them, he said "oh yeah, that's the Bum Rush."

Everything I've seen on this material confirms that it's a gangster/street "style", or rather, a semi-codified skill that has a number of specific techniques, tricks and attitudes attached to it. The prison connection seems to be that a lot of gangsters spend time inside and that prison time is used by some as training time - "Gladiator School", as it was described in the YouTube clip.