DdlR, define organic.

Sorry, I mean that it is something that emerged and grew spontaneously, in a mostly unplanned, unstructured fashion.

"From a cultural perspective, that would have been a real shame; today people like me would be reading records in old Brazilian newspapers and wishing that something of the art had survived, and more importantly, tens of thousands of mostly working class African-descended Capoeiristas in Brazil, and many others around the world, would be denied the chance to practice a healthy art/sport that connects them to that time and place."


Ok, granted....in hindsight, the Capoeirist history served its purpose and evolved into what it is now, much like karate and k-fu and a myriad of other arts....but at quite a cost for those during its 'street phase'...and no where near as influential on the psyche of modern day hood kids....kids whose favorite vid games are games that desensitize one to bloody deeds, ones whos icons to emulate are dudes like Shug or 50 cent. It permeates their lives....that aforementioned OG paradise.....a mirage!

One can easily draw paralells from the street gangs to the berserkers or goths -- to an academician, it must be fascinating. To those that now live such a paralell...it is a life of extremes and disassociation from societies norms.....at its worst, its 25 to life. The pivot point can be very fast - go and do with the crew....and maybe things go bad (maybe not) but if they do.....the prevailing laws of society will lock your ass away fast......very fast.

If I had been a jailer during the time of the legendary master 'satan' (a Cap. legendary figure) - you bet your ass I would not have been thrilled to have him on my count. BUT - you see, we are really talking about 3 things as though one....1. the legendary 'Bantu born' 52 (and I remember the old B.Belt article on the subject - Kantu Bankui (if I remeber right, it was more than 30 years ago)- which is where I bet the idea of linking any possible form of 'real' 52 to such a starting point came from ) 2. the 'legend of 52' -- which is the transition from possible fact into fable urban 3. the new 52 that from legend - is being touted as th3 d3eadly now! And THAT 52 is the crap I refer to.

But we all refer to it as 52....think Pankration...or those that claim to teach the old Norse combatives.

Capoiera did evolve into a nice culttural form of ma/exercise...over time.

But that time of evolution is not this time nor place. Its is again - a mirage....one that has a certain sociopathic point of view that does not bode well for those that wanna be livin off the strength of the legend/52. The 'code' my well shaped 50 year old ass. Hood culturalist wanna be's keep trying to allude to a 'code' as though it had the moral equivalent of the code of chivalry, bushido or knights templar (all kinda shysty in their own way). Scientology has a code as well, but I sure as hell dont believe that we are all inhabited by the souls of an ancient alien race dead for billions of years - but many folks do!

True believers.....are very much that - true to their code....and the code of the street/prisons...is a code that leads to a less than productive life - except within their own circle, and even there - its an ugly often violent end of life early. New 52 is actually more the newbie legend and a mish mosh of things - many are hardly useable and martial (gleened from cinema and magazines) and rhythmic (the lords of the street dance) and a few useful (some downright cold and nasty) things. The old 52 - if it ever was - is deader than JFK...the legend reborn fuels the fantasy of a lineage that one can be proud (?) of. Catch my drift?

I remember reading once that if the japanese feudal period had lasted a bit longer - there would be numerous ryu on the use fo the bicycle chain and broken beer bottle. They codify everything.

The present living form of 52 is just a bunch of things thrown into a pot...with some pseudo african culture and present day street references and some break dancing along with nasty **** learned while incarcerated thrown in, simmered at the heat of a life of less than opportune circumstances and a dash of 50 cent and WTClan thrown in for cred flava. Served over cold dead history undocumented, with a touch of anfro-centric (but nicely disguised as keepin it real) racisim for garnish. And what shall we call this witches brew of pseudo 'culture' ? Hmmmmm, how about this..52 blocks!

I would not mind it but for its youth mind altering base where all is justified in the hood...ya gotta get yours....get rich or die trying....bullshit!

And ultimately...all those mired in this mindset....hurt - is their direct victims and themselves.
And that may be academicaly or social scientist interesting....but to those that buy this bullshit - pay a very heavy cost of body, mind and spirit.
And so does everyone who lives in the shadow of this crap - so much easier to step down into the street, and stay there (keepin it real?)- than to take the step out and leave the life behind forever.

And with that - its time for me to 'step off' on the subject.

So what you're saying is, the new 52's legend is like the madeup history of TKD?

Its like many of the dubious histories that the true believers and wanna-be pok'e-masters cling to.
Only with a gangsta flava.

So what you're saying is, the new 52's legend is like the madeup history of TKD?

Correct.

RobG,

regarding the Black Belt magazine article, I think this is the one most commonly referred to in discussions about Jailhouse Rock/52 -

From BLACK BELT MAGAZINE, July, 1974: "Karate in Prison: Menace, or Means of Spiritual Survival?" by Anne Darling and James Perryman, p. 21:


Another ex-inmate says the first time he ever saw a karate technique was in Coxsacki, a New York prison, in 1948. "The different prisons had and still have their own fighting styles," he says. They were prison martial arts, not traditional styles. In fact, Kid Gavilan (world welterweight boxing champion, 1951-54) used a Coxsacki variation, and Floyd Patterson's peekaboo style was a Coxsacki variation, too. Because of limited space in prison, we learned wall-fighting techniques. Then a lot of former G.I.s in the joint had learned hand-to-hand combat - they came home, styled it, made it hip, and gave it soul."

Miguel "Miky" Pinero, while an inmate of Sing-Sing, wrote a play called "Short Eyes" about the killing of a sex offender in a house of detention. The play is now a smashing success at the Public Theater in New York. Pinero describes his introduction to prison martial arts: "The first thing I did in the joint was to check out the style and learn to fight with a home piece - somebody from my neighborhood on the streets. I learned the Woodbourne shuffle, an evasion technique that first was used in the joint at Woodbourne and got passed around. Then I learned wall-fighting, and somebody taught me the Comstock style.

The Comstock style, named for an upstate New York prison, involves what one inmate calls "the use of dirty fighting techniques." The object is to lure an opponent into thinking he is going to get a "fair one - then go for a quick, sneak kick to the ankle, kneecap, or family jewels."

For what it's worth, this adds WW2 military CQB into the mix ... and assuming that the authors/sources were anywhere near on the level, it does confirm that several aspects of modern JHR/52 lore were present in 1974.

Is Black Belt Magazine typically accurate with its reporting? How many alleged arts have been articled in BBM that are known to be or generally agreed to be bullshido?

Not too many will want to learn ghetto anything, except maybe gangsta wannabes. Which is a damn shame, really, the only issue should be effectiveness.

Capoeira had a similar stigma, until Mestre Bimba came along and made it respectable.

Will 52HB/JHR/KNK have it's Bimba? Only time will tell, I guess.

RobG (glossing over details) believes in systema:
http://bullshido.net/forums/showpost.php?p=212819&postcount=66
but not 52. That says something in my book.

I think when systema gets mention, appropos of nothing, it's time to look down, and quietly back away from this thread.

Meng Mao,

I'm not sure what you mean by that - RobG seems to have mixed feelings about 52 as a fighting skill, but he has actually confirmed that it still exists, at least in a modern, heavily mythologized form. I think that his main objection is that from his perspective, 52 is symptomatic of a "gangsta's paradise" mentality that he doesn't like.

LOL

RobG and I are dear friends, I will share some of what I know about him:

Religous people 'beieve in' religions. There is an element of faith involved.

RobG doesn't 'believe in' a style. He believes in what happens to him. He went all the way to Moscow to spar with systema top dog Mikhail Ryabko, empty hand and with knife, full-out. He had never done systema before in his life. He wanted to KNOW WTF was up. Ooooh how I wish *other people* had the guts to follow the courage of their convictions and step up. The resulting response was so overwhelming and delivered in such a uniquely painful way he had to stop training for the rest of the day (I was actually there, btw). THAT'S when he became a 'believer'. You wanna make RobG a believer? Go fight him.

And when you go to fight him, know that he's a Ryker's Island bodyguard [edit - make that jail guard] with decades of ma experience, and a lot of REAL LIFE familiarity with attacks with or without a blade. It's PART OF HIS JOB. Not that it helped him with Ryabko, but Ryabko also has had to deal with real life threatening attacks as part of his job. In systema, we call these people 'professionals'. If you are not a professional, no matter how hard or what you studied, no matter the sport you compete in, you are an 'amateur'. Like me. And oh, I may be able to out do a professional in the sanitary sanguine confines of a mat or a ring, but I've had a knife pulled on me in anger enough times to know the difference between using your **** there and using it when your guts are water, your knees are shaking, and you can barely form a fist. That's where a guy like Rob shines like a diamond.

So until some 52HB guy manages to go upside his head, IF he could do that, in a way he can't readily comprehend, THEN Rob may be a 'believer' in 52.

As for myself, I'm not endorsing 52 etc. I'm just expressing an objective interest, and witholding judgement as to its merits until such time as I have more complete information. As to me parting with my hard-earned cash, that is yet another story.

Of course, I don't feel the need to denigrate a style just because I never heard of it, because my sensei contradicts it (talke abuot faith-based reasoning!), or because of where it comes from. Those are, no offense, bullshit reasons.

What comes down in faour of JHR for me is I once tried the headbutt to the gut followed by punch to the face move, and it worked for me, against a kickboxer at that. Yes, I had to get in close enough to do it, no easy thing, but once in, it did work out okay. And yes, I was ready for the guillotine/chin pick should they have happened, but I was confident I could out do the guy in that dimension. Bottom line, for me then, something from JHR worked.

As it was told to me by a crooklynite emigre to Toronto in the late 90's when I was getting my jujutsu (not BJJ) BB, 52 is a street art, but with more blacks doing time than going to college (not a judegement on black people, it's fucking sad really, I'm a black man myself, and it doesn't have to be that way) I could see jail being a way-station for some of these people to meet and talk.

LOL..and just what does that say, Meng Mao...I happen to be an authorized instructor of systema....among a few other arts - 3 b.belts I no longer study, a colored 'glove' rank from Savate under Assali...an assistant MT instructorship under Surisites group from the 90's.... a 'level 2' certificate under N. Cauldwell of the Inosanto JKD group...some others not needed to mention. I was a registered competirior with Art Davies UFC in the early days..... (And the early days of the UFC was a 'work' -- ask any pro-wrestler what that means)...even did some pro wrestling in the 90's in the independent orgs.
More importantly - I am a veteran of over 25 years of violent professions: Been a skip tracer/bail enforcement agent, executive security/bodyguard for the old AT&T, a bouncer at a rather busy 'night spot' in NYC, and have been in NYC coreections for 19 years - and have happily worked in a few of the most violent institutions in this system of incarceration. I have logged well over 200 reportable use of force reports - more than 8xs the norm for an average officer (because I am frickin 'good at it' - my supervisiors 'pick' me to work certain assignments - because I dont stomp a guy out of anger - I can do what needs to be done to legally end a violent confrontation - and no more. Yet still, I have a logged report of a 5 man attack on me that resulted in a broken neck - an attackers. I have been in 3 'mini-riots' - where the officer were outnumbered by a factor of over 25 to one - and all hell was breaking loose - and all I was concerned about was my fellow officers. I have a commendation for my service to the department. I have been the target of organized gang violence, have been the target of shankings and cuttings....and the only damage I will carry to my grave is 2 bad knees, and a bad left ankle..suffered while coming to the aid for other officers being beaten bloody by inmates. I have never been cited for un-neccesary or excessive force - and MANY an inmate has told me they were glad I was working the house they were in..becausethey knew the **** wouldnt break out.

As a moron suffering from an over developed boy scout complex - I have been involved in third party defence numerous times...and even was the intended victim a couple of times on the street by predators....and dealt with it well enough to be here and now to say the above without any regard of criticism from those that have been here awhile.

When I still taught Syatema...there was a thread a few years ago bashing it...and a few times folks from this very site, as they huffed about the oddness of it - were sent my name and link - even where to come and do the work with me - and NO ONE EVER showed up!
I didnt know it at the time...but it would not have mattered - back then, I didnt mind being a systema evangelist at all.

Now, at 50 - busted knees and ankle and not caring about convincing anyone to what I prefer to practice AND USE ON MY JOB....I let the younger affilates deal with the naysayers.

I am 41 years in ma study - and I have experienced alot along the way. A hell of alot more than the vast majority that are here - but ya know what? Without naming names, I have found a certain form of respect of a few of the well known icons here.

M. Mao - my preference for Systema was NEVER a secret to those who have been here for years and saw 'RobG' show up from time to time. Maybe its news to YOU - but not to all.

In my training, in my employ, and it th3 st33t - I have thrown away more clothes stained permanently with blood that I care to count. I know what blood SMELLS like! Not a few drops - full spurting blood. I admit, I do know well the taste of my own - but thats all part of the profession I chose...and the way I choose to live my life.

So - Meng Mao - you tell me what you 'believe' my decision to work Systema is about?
I dont believe in this art - that implies faith - I work from a point of EXPERIENCE that has shown me that this art is the method I prefer, and it has proven itself to me its effectiveness and worth. One size does not fit all - but this fits me quite nicely.

And I would have to 'believe' that my overall life experience in study and real time martial expression in violent confrontations is FAR more varied and vaild a point to work from in looking deeply into any methods overall worth to me - than your attempt (at least it seems to be as such) to disparage the screename I use simply by jumping on the anti-systema bandwagon. A bandwagon that has some support from those who actually have some real time experience with the more trained exponents of the method. Unlike 52 - its easy to find. I actually mentioned a number of chances this last month for a member to attend a seminar on either the east or west coast to attend a seminar with Vasilieve, Ryabco and the many attending older students...I even think I mentioned starting a fund to send someone there - and that suggestion fell as dead as last months meat loaf.

Prior to this post - I have written here half your post total...but never hid the FACT that I am authorized to teach Systema - as I KNOW IT!~

Now, my more compete life resume is above - and M. Mao - in the world of ma experience - can you come close to even half-matching it? If your less than 30 years old....and have not been involved in a regularly violent profession - PLEASE - dont even try to convince me that your possible trophy count means ****. I still have decaying b.belt certs that are older than you....and possibly my carry weapons holster is also. Kickboxing and Shamrock SF (BTW - I do admire Kens life record for competiton and performance wrestling - wish him well) - but these methods are hardly what I would find useful in my world.


I doubt it would have been as effective as Systema and my pre-Systema choices have been.

Oh, I wont post much about BJJ - seen so little of it. I wont comment on arts like Hsing-Yi or even Judo - though before you were probably born - I did earn a green belt - before I started in karate - way before JKD, MT, TKD or a present plethora of arts were available to study. I have been around a long time in m.a. --- maybe decades longer than you. I have seen things change.

More importantly to me is getting my ass home as unscathed as possible every night - and in that proving ground, for me - Systema has served me very well.

So, Meng Mao - what are your life qualifications to even think YOU can 'say something in my(your) book' about my posts?

Impress me, impress all of the older ones here - I have been in numerous sites, many 'real time people' know me as what I write here. The REAL me....and they have zero problem with my choices or my posts.

If you got more resume than I - then we will simply have to chose to disagree - if NOT?
Then basically - in bullshido-ese - STFU! And recognize that you didnt know RobG the way you 'believed' you did.

"RobG (glossing over details) believes in systema:
http://bullshido.net/forums/showpos... 9&postcount=66
but not 52. That says something in my book."

Who is glossing over details? You or I? My post record stands for all to read.
I just come here to enjoy the forum and share my experience and understanding of certain things. I could just as easily choose not to..but I like this place.

52 is written from MY understanding and what I know about it. As is combatives or Systema or chicks with big boobs.

What does my preference for Systema, and rejection of 52 - 'tell you' Meng Mao?

No fault, no foul.

Your turn...educate me.

****! This is the second time in this thread that someone was writting the same time as I.
Jellymans words are too kind, upon finding them.
I am basically a Brooklyn hard headed kid that found a better way from m.a. study - hell, even I went to college for awhile.
And even when I was a street thug - it was the hard point of contact that I found convincing.
And now, between Jelly and I - and previous posts - you all know a helluva lot more about RobG than even many real time fellow officers and my friends.

All I really care about here is to be free to speak my mind.
Here I am free.

And come what may..I am very easy to find, in forums or in the real.

Educate me.

LOL

the man himself is here!

Well, off to bed

luv ua Rob

RobG,

in the interests of clarity:


"RobG (glossing over details) believes in systema:http://bullshido.net/forums/showpos... 9&postcount=66
but not 52. That says something in my book."

Who is glossing over details? You or I? My post record stands for all to read.

I'm not Meng Mao, but I think he meant that he was glossing over the other details in your posts; and I'm not sure that he actually picked up on what you were saying.

Meng, in the interests of keeping this on track, RobG expressed a deep distaste for the 52s but he confirmed that they do still exist in his daily work environment. He also pointed out that what he deals with is the most modern manifestation of the 52s, and defined that.

This makes at least three apparently well-qualified people (RobG, BrotherD and Professor Green) who have confirmed that 52/JHR does exist beyond the folklore that is attached to it. All three come at it from very different perspectives, but the fact that they agree on its "real world" existence is significant.