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shinbushi
4/26/2005 6:32pm,
Almost enough to make me want to quit.

Shane -- we've been having some discussion about this in my dojo lately, because some BJJ fighters have been challenging Bujinkan dojo in our area.
From Kutaki no mura (http://www.kutaki.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&topic_id=1930&forum=2) MMA vs BBT


Basically, it comes down to a difference in what the arts are about. Sport martial arts are about two people training their bodies and getting into a ring or cage with a set of rules and seeing who is the better competitor at this art. That's fine, and nothing wrong with it... but its purpose is primarily for sport and competition. The arts that Bujinkan is derived from were not created and perfected for competition... they were created and perfected for real combat in the battlefields of ancient Japan. See the difference already?

I hear the "no resistence from partners" argument about Bujinkan training a lot, and all I've got to say is -- someone should inform the sempai that I've trained with. I go home weekly with fresh bruises, blood and contusions, and I think my experience is similar to other budoka I've spoken with. Of course, when someone is teaching a technique, we don't resist so that they can show us the "textbook" version of the technique, and then once everyone has the basic mechanics of the technique down, we start resisting. Of course, for white belts and beginners, we don't let them fully resist because their ukemi might not be good enough yet to safely throw them around, but when I train with the sempai we go as full speed as safety will allow. We don't do much "free sparring," but that's because what we're doing isn't geared towards ever having to spar. If I'm in a street fight or any fight, my goal isn't to let someone get up, at all. I don't want to spar with them, because every second I let them fight back is a second I put myself in danger. My only goal is to dispatch them as quickly as possible and get the hell out of there. Sparring isn't the best way to do that. It's perfect for people who want to spar with each other or test their toughness, but I'm not about to tell the drunk at the bar who's pulled a knife on me that we should see who's tougher. I'm going to spit my beer into his face, crack the bottle on his head, throw the peanuts into his face and run away. Sure, later he can tell all his buddies how big a wuss I was, but hey... I survived.
If it were not for my teachers, and my students man they don't get it.

The only good post is from Garth from page 3 half way down

n the old days of Ninjutsu in Feudal Japan, Ninja training was very tough. Training from a youth was common and if you could not perform, or did not try hard enough, it was not unknown for the Ninjutsu instructor to beat his student until he tried harder. Trainee ninja of course also got killed sometimes in training.
In fact Ninjutsu was a trade, and as such Ninja must have spent much of teir time training.

Today however we are much more laid back. We might visit the dojo once or twice a week, pay a visit to the gym, go for a run, but our training is not really intense.
On the other hand MMA fighters coming up to a fight will train like any other athlete. They will hit pads, bags, visit the gym each night to spar, go running before breakfast, jump rope, start stacking carbohydrates as well as being aware of what they eat, Get back ground info on their opponent etc etc. In short they will live in the gym.

If we are to compete with these people, technique and body movement is usually not enough.
In your Dojo do you hit pads, practice ground fighting, spar with your partner, keep yourself fit, or do you practice what i would call Classical Ninjutsu i.e the kata.
And yes there is a place for kata, but they are not the be all and end all. they are the place to start.

Shuma-Gorath
4/26/2005 6:46pm,
I'm going to spit my beer into his face, crack the bottle on his head, throw the peanuts into his face and run away.
Notice how the ?kan practitioner is drinking alone.

Castel
4/26/2005 7:04pm,
Ive always wanted to try out bujinkan or genbukan in the future.
But things like these discourage me at times.Sigh.

Neil-o-Mac
4/26/2005 7:16pm,
We need more instructors like you in the x-kans, Shinbushi. You combination of classical kata training and modern SBG-style aliveness training sounds like it'd be fab.

I asked about other bujinkan students' experience with focus mitt drills on another forum and a few folk were all like 'but wouldn't wearing bag gloves or the like interfere with tradition?'. I mean, WTF? I enjoy the art that I train in, but some of the stuff that some of the people training in it really make me scratch my head.

As far as the whole randori/sparring = ego fest argument, it almost feels kinda hypocritical in some cases - chances are a lot of people's rejection of sparring/randori is due to a deep-down fear of getting whooped and having their ego shattered. Me, I have no such fear. I know I'd get caned by most people. :D

I'm tempted to post a link to the Matt Thornton clip where he explains aliveness on Kutaki, but I'm not in the mood to get flamed by those who've had their viewpoint destroyed. :P

shinbushi
4/26/2005 7:54pm,
I'm tempted to post a link to the Matt Thornton clip where he explains aliveness on Kutaki, but I'm not in the mood to get flamed by those who've had their viewpoint destroyed. :P
If you do they will do the sport vs street arguement.
I got in an aliveness war a few moths ago and the reply was why don't you ask Soke if you should be sparring and training alive. I go to japan to learn what he has to teach not rubber stamp my training methods. Should I ask my Muay Thai instructor if I should train in Greeco clinch in addition to Thai Clinch ? :cussing:

Spunky
4/26/2005 8:11pm,
:XXknight:

Hang in there, man. You make a great example that more high profile Buj teachers should follow. It's unfortunate that so many of the best shidoshi stay under the radar, the majority of students never get exposed to training mentalities like yours.



I understand/agree that budo taijutsu largely falls under a different paradigm than sport systems and that they cannot be directly compared. But I'm sick of hearing that as an excuse for not being able to perform at even the most amateur level of ability against these other arts. There is a whole Bujinkan dojo near here of which (I am sad to say) I would expect nearly every student to get steamrolled by a truly aggressive fighter, simply because they are not confronted with the stress of a dynamic situation (at least in a realistic manner).

There is also this excuse that as a "budo," we will always shift the variables in our favor so it isn't a fair fight, and since sparring puts you on equal ground it therefore doesn't apply to a real fight. But when you are TRAINING, what is the problem with isolating all those variables so you can focus on some specific conceps in a dynamic way? Isn't that the point of randori... to capture/control the chaos/war?

There is so much to learn from different methodologies; with the stress from Hatsumi (and the ryu themselves) on being flexible and balanced in all ways, I constantly fail to understand why so many of the most public proponents remain martially xenophobic.

Castel
4/26/2005 8:20pm,
I would expect nearly every student to get steamrolled by a truly aggressive fighter, simply because they are not confronted with the stress of a dynamic situation (at least in a realistic manner).

That happened to me when I left my taekwondo dojo for a MMA gym.
I couldnt sleep because it made me realized how much of an ass I was when I use to think I was the **** when I took taekwondo :coffee:

Wounded Ronin
4/26/2005 10:53pm,
Shinbushi, man, you have my sympathy. You really do. If you want to talk with someone about this just to deal with the stress you can PM the crap out of me.

But look at it this way. You're the one man who can make a big difference for the better at your school. If you were to leave no one would be left to carry the flag.


EDIT:

Heh.



That's what I think Dale-sensei meant about measuring the size of generative organs. A lot of MMA people (not necessarily you) sneer at traditional arts like the Bujinkan because most of us aren't interested in fighting in their competitions, and as a result, the assumption is that Bujinkan people can't fight well or that our art is one for fakes (see Bullshido.net for clarification of this point), and it's a sore spot for some people.




By the way, do you think that the BJJ guys will come over for a challenge? If so, I think some video might be in order... :new_smile

ArmchairNinja
4/26/2005 10:56pm,
That happened to me when I left my taekwondo dojo for a MMA gym.
I couldnt sleep because it made me realized how much of an ass I was when I use to think I was the **** when I took taekwondo :coffee:
I know the feeling having moved from karate to bjj. I still train some karate, but the delusions are gone.

As for the whole sport vs reality argument, I think it's just lame. How can anyone claim that doing everything only at a theoretical level and hoping it will miraculously work in a real scenario (bujinkan and most other tma's) is better or even compares to training a system at full intensity and knowing that it works ("sport" bjj), with the added knowledge of t3h d34dly techniques on a theoretical level (vale tudo)?

Wounded Ronin
4/26/2005 11:22pm,
BWAH HWAH HWAH, check this out...



Please remember that a classically trained budoka was trained from early childhood in the arts of war. They were reared with a warrior spirit that is rarely seen today, and when it is those people are often feared as if they were some sort of crazed being. It takes time to develop in any classical martial art, not just the Bujinkan, to a point where the art will be useful in a real-life combat encounter.
...
Perhaps you should seek out Pressure Point Control Tactics, a system delevoped by Bruce Siddle. This is what many police officers are taught in the US, because it is easy and does not require a lot of practice.



Heh, and this papa-san guy went and ripped poor Gareth a new one, or tried to:


Garth, if you are happy with what you are doing then that is fine with all of us. You see, no matter what your opinion of your training, its effectiveness will be tested in any real situation. If you chose poorly, it is your life and well-being on the line, no one else's. Opinions and "beliefs" are fine, but they are not fact. That is determined where the cheeze gets binding. To presume that the Bujinkan is not effective in real situations or less so than the "To shin do" is a real big presumption, one not supported by fact. So enjoy your training and live with the results you get, as will we all.



HA HA HA HA HA HA hack cough wheeze....



Gotta agree with Ed here, it`s whatever floats your boat, if you feel that the art you`re studying does it for you then fine, if it doesn`t then change, I, like Ed find that BBT does it for me but that doesn`t stop us looking at other serious arts, i say serious because of the we`re all aware of the crap that`s out there.




Ah, more of "bujinkan dosen't suck until you go all the way to Japan"



My point is that before you are making a judgment about what lies on the other side of the mountain, go to the mountain yourself, see with your own eyes and judge for yourself. Three weeks of training in Japan with Soke, along with teachers such as Shraishi-sensei, Nagato-sensei, Someya-sensei and others will surely give you a far more informed perspective on this decision.



Why Bujinkan is better than Tito Oritz:


I remember an interview with Tito Ortiz in Penthouse Magazine several years ago. Ortiz mentions that he once got into a fight at a party and put his opponent into a guillotine hold (which is a particularly nasty choke/neck crank, hurts like hell).

Well, lo and behold Ortiz's opponent had a friend at the party and he didn't like what Ortiz was doing to his buddy. Tito got a beer bottle smashed on top of his head, which pretty much ended the fight.

Mixed martial arts is about fighting. Real martial arts is about surviving.


Because a typical fat bujinkan blackbelt 1.) would have been able to make a technique work on a resisting opponent and 2.) is immune to being snuck up on with a bottle.

My god, have these bujinkan guys got delusions of psychic grandeur? They think that because they do the booj they can't be blindsided or sucker punched?


But I'm saving the best for last:



So, let me offer how a person practicing ninjutsu should view mixed martial arts. Take a few hundred small pieces of paper and label each with different tags such as unarmed, sword, knife, many opponents, spear, in water, in a smoke filled burning house, on horse back, while sick, after three days with no food and water and put these in a large container. Now, you draw out one piece and have someone else take another. Now, thatís mixed martial arts the way someone following the Old Ways think about it. I think anyone can see how open ended the various situations can become. Until the mixed martial arts community can show that a few wrestling skills and a little physical condition (often combined with performance drugs) can address these situations better than what has been passed done by men and women ho have lived through them, then training in mixed marital arts is actually more an obstacle then a help


See? Practicing mixed martial arts makes you less likely to survive physical trauma and difficulty than not exercising. Oh dear god...please, someone go punch this man in the face. Too much pain to read.

It is Fake
4/26/2005 11:33pm,
I feel for you in more ways than you can imagine. It sucks being the lone voice of reason. That sport vs MMA argument is huge in TMA take a look at KFO. What is funny is you are deemed a traitor if you believe in MMA training. The funny thing is no TMAs will ever tell the stories of those guys getting there asses kicked in "The Street." How many boxers do you hear about getting beat up in the street. I can't name one. How mant TMA do you hear about getting beat up in the street. Many.

See I had the same wake up call. I only watched a BJJ class. All I could think was how much better I would be if we practiced 45 minutes of straight techniques learning, applying, and resisting. I do like kata, it is similar in my eye to shadow boxing or punching a bag but, you need resistance.

How you practice is how you will fight end of story.

Mr hide
4/26/2005 11:40pm,
1. Like every other martial art your school has no groundgame

2.You dont practice with aliveness

I have practised ninjutsu before and there techniques work but they dont have any sparring. So I advise you

1. CROSS TRAIN!!!!! BJJ PLEASE

2. get some of your buddies buy some protective gear and after every class practise every techique realistically and do some sparring with your buddies.


ps. you want to do some real ninja ****, go to their school register with them for like 6 months train as hard as you can with them learn as much as you can with from them. Then when you know there coming to challege your school, side with your people.

Mr hide
4/26/2005 11:42pm,
1. Like every other martial art your school has no groundgame

2.You dont practice with aliveness

I have practised ninjutsu before and there techniques work but they dont have any sparring. So I advise you

1. CROSS TRAIN!!!!! BJJ PLEASE

2. get some of your buddies buy some protective gear and after every class practise every techique realistically and do some sparring with your buddies.


ps. you want to do some real ninja ****, go to their school register with them for like 6 months train as hard as you can with them learn as much as you can with from them. Then when you know there coming to challege your school, side with your people.

Lane
4/27/2005 1:03am,
C'mon now... there were much better posts in the thread from Seago-sensei and Martin-sensei...

What many of you accuse the Booj of is true... at some dojo. At others, it's not. Anyone who doubts this should stop by a good dojo. Both Ed Martin-sensei and Dale Seago-sensei would be good people to go look at. Anyone in the Austin area can stop by my dojo.

To all the people in the Bujinkan who criticize it -- why do you continue to train in the Bujinkan if you feel you need to cross-train? Why not just stick in the arts you need to cross train in?

ArmchairNinja
4/27/2005 1:51am,
Take a few hundred small pieces of paper and label each with different tags such as unarmed, sword, knife, many opponents, spear, in water, in a smoke filled burning house, on horse back, while sick, after three days with no food and water and put these in a large container. Now, you draw out one piece and have someone else take another. Now, thatís mixed martial arts the way someone following the Old Ways think about it.
Ninjutsu may have been great in the historical context it originated in, but in today's society you don't fight sword-wielding horse-riding opponents inside burning buildings while being sick. The only weapons you will face are handguns and knives and it's just not worth the risk to pull any ninja tricks when faced with either. Why can't these neo-ninjas just admit that their art is not optimal for modern day context?

Spunky
4/27/2005 2:28am,
Arahoushi, one cross-training implies supplementary study to a foundational system, which is the Bujinkan for myself.

I love budo taijutsu. As much as I enjoy learning about other arts and training/discussing with their proponents, I feel at home here. There is a sense of depth and life to the art that I haven't felt elsewhere. As important as I think it is to get EXPOSED to boxing and groundfighting specialists, I appreciate the wide variety of weaponry we train with in the Bujinkan, the amazing versatility of the principles, and overall how it enriches my life.

I'm always banging my head against the wall watching discussion turn into a comparison of budo taijutsu with MMA stuff. I think that some Bujinkan people need to rethink what the beneficial purpose of competition and sparring CAN be, and it's detractors need to understand how the context of the two approaches are totally different. There are many people working in law enforcement, military, and personal protection/security professions who have a need for training certain kinds of conditions and stake their lives on this system. The concepts in the budo taijutsu transfer very well to using and wearing a variety of equipment, improvised weapons, and dealing with unusual and suprise circumstances.

Flexibility of body and mind are important, and it is exactly for this reason that exposure to other training methods is a no-brainer. AND I think there is, in many Bujinkan circles, an underappreciation for how sparring at the very least is important in developing a comfort in dangerous situations. I don't know what better way there is to test your development in muto dori and fudoshin.


Why can't these neo-ninjas just admit that their art is not optimal for modern day context?

I don't think any Bujinkan teachers pretend that getting mugged at Naginata-point is a realistic possibility :icon_bigg But the concepts present in daisho-sabaki, and in general fighting within an armed context, still apply even though the weapons themselves have changed. Besides, fighting with polearms is a blast anyway, and using many different weapons (antiquated or not) provides some interesting insights into controlling space.