Musha dori and Ganseki nage look the same thing the Gracie's are selling on videos as street effective technque now why don't you whine about how the Gracie clips look not street effective.

My experience is that Musha Dori is very hard to pull off on someone really resisting you (especially if they are stronger/taller). I *maybe* get it during a clinch if no strikes are allowed around 10-20% of the time I try it. But even then it rarely has the intended effect. If the person is allowed to punch though you get hit in the head pretty hard and they can frequently muscle their way out. So I think the actual technique is low percentage from my experience and don't really use it except to harass people smaller and weaker than I am. :)

Ganseki Nage is also very hit or miss. If the timing isn't perfect it's too easy for the opponent to simply bend their arm and/or yank out. Even worse, it leaves you turned slightly sideways to your opponent which opens you up for an easy takedown. The only place I really use Ganseki is off of a sprawl or other failed shot where I go for a whizzer or into a modified Ganseki variation to lock up the elbow. Otherwise I don't find many opportunities to use it where it doesn't get me into a worse situation.

So all in all, I think both video clips (Gracie and Bujinkan) show something that at least for me doesn't work well and I've never seen used reliably on anyone really fighting you back.

This all gets back to why I think most joint locks on standing opponents work poorly: You don't control the entire body so it's too easy for the person to manuever their way out of the position. IMHO.

"Those people who do BBT have a valid point that no matter how good you are at some form of ring fighting, it will not prepare you for the adreneline dump of an actual encounter out of no-where. Take your pick; knife attack, sucker punch, baseball bat swing, etc"

Anyone who wants to experience an adrenaline dump should try getting into the ring.

If you've never fought in front of 100+ people with full contact to the head, you're in for an eye opening experience.

"Those people who do BBT have a valid point that no matter how good you are at some form of ring fighting, it will not prepare you for the adreneline dump of an actual encounter out of no-where. Take your pick; knife attack, sucker punch, baseball bat swing, etc"


WHy does TMA do this crap. No, it isn't a valid point and heres is why.

This is what actually made me start looking differently at TMA. This phrase crosses all lines of TMA. I have heard this in all of the arts I have taken which covers 3 different countries maybe four.

MMA/Boxers/ Sport Fighters don't know how to deal with the adrenaline dump.

Yes, they do. It may be a different type of situation but you don't know that guy across the ring. Unless it is a rematch.

Sportfighters don't know how to deal with the sudden unknowing violence adrenaline dump. Okay I'll agree with this to.

Answer me this how does TMA training teach you this in a more realistic manner with Kata, one step techniques, and non-resisting opponents?

So, in other words why apply this realistic point to everything but your art (TMA in general)?

"Nothing will prepare you for that, short of experiencing it first hand.
BUT, fighting fighters, well trained fighters who have the skills to hurt you, better skills than the majority of people you will fight on "the street", WILL prepare you to deal with agression and violence better than some sort of training that doesn't expose you to anything other than crap."

I never said I didn't agree with that, and I was trying to put some perspective on where some of the BBT are coming from.

"Anyone who wants to experience an adrenaline dump should try getting into the ring. "

I would defineately say it gets your heart up/ juices the system, because I DO spar, train in aliveness, have my opponent resist, go all out, get the ever-loving snot thumped outta me by my training partners, etc
But I think where the BBT people that I have talked to are getting at is that it is a prearranged event. You are expecting it.


"Answer me this how does TMA training teach you this in a more realistic manner with Kata, one step techniques, and non-resisting opponents?

So, in other words why apply this realistic point to everything but your art (TMA in general)?"

When did I ever say I did TMA?

"Anyone who wants to experience an adrenaline dump should try getting into the ring. "

I would defineately say it gets your heart up/ juices the system, because I DO spar, train in aliveness, have my opponent resist, go all out, get the ever-loving snot thumped outta me by my training partners, etc
But I think where the BBT people that I have talked to are getting at is that it is a prearranged event. You are expecting it.



True, it's a pre-arranged event, but I don't see how the BBT people are in any way immune to their own criticism here. Unless getting into knife fights in TEH STR33t is part of their training.

My only point is that the experience of sport fighting should not be dismissed just because it's pre-arranged and has rules. It may not be up there with getting attacked with a machete, but it is a different order of experiece from an MA class.

Facing an opponent whom you do not know, who wants to knock you out in front of 100+ people whom you don't know will definitely test one's ability to keep cool.

Facing a trained fighter trying to beat you is always better than facing an un-trained fighter NOT trying to beat you.

Silly debate.

"Anyone who wants to experience an adrenaline dump should try getting into the ring. "

I would defineately say it gets your heart up/ juices the system, because I DO spar, train in aliveness, have my opponent resist, go all out, get the ever-loving snot thumped outta me by my training partners, etc
But I think where the BBT people that I have talked to are getting at is that it is a prearranged event. You are expecting it.


"Answer me this how does TMA training teach you this in a more realistic manner with Kata, one step techniques, and non-resisting opponents?

So, in other words why apply this realistic point to everything but your art (TMA in general)?"

When did I ever say I did TMA?


Never said you did. I'm refering to your paragraph concerning BBT which is similar to many TMA in philosphy. You took up their point, I'm answering that point.

That is why I put TMA in general so you would realize it was a rhetorical question to all TMA that use this reasoning against MMA and not themselves.

Next time I'll put TMA in Genral not the post writer. Nah no I won't.

To add to what Ronin said you are comfortable with your partners it isn't the same as an unknown opponent.

"True, it's a pre-arranged event, but I don't see how the BBT people are in any way immune to their own criticism here. Unless getting into knife fights in TEH STR33t is part of their training.

My only point is that the experience of sport fighting should not be dismissed just because it's pre-arranged and has rules. It may not be up there with getting attacked with a machete, but it is a different order of experiece from an MA class.

Facing an opponent whom you do not know, who wants to knock you out in front of 100+ people whom you don't know will definitely test one's ability to keep cool."

Gotcha, agree 100%

"Facing a trained fighter trying to beat you is always better than facing an un-trained fighter NOT trying to beat you.

Silly debate."

Agreed.

"Never said you did. I'm refering to your paragraph concerning BBT which is similar to many TMA in philosphy. You took up their point, I'm answering that point.

That is why I put TMA in general so you would realize it was a rhetorical question to all TMA that use this reasoning against MMA and not themselves. "

Sorry, my mistake. Didn't realiize it was a rhetorical question.

Look. I have good freinds in both camps with opinions on both sides of the debate and I am not trying to nutride either way. My hope was to show from my experience in talking with people from both groups what their mentality was and try to show there is value and valid points of view in each.

Having expercienced both taijitsu and MMA the adrenalin pump is definately there in MMA but rarely there in taijitsu except maybe for testing because of test pressure. If you want to train adrenalin pump outside of MMA then I would recommend Peyton Quinns training at RMCAT. They have an excellent program there.

Or enter the Golden Gloves.

Look. I have good freinds in both camps with opinions on both sides of the debate and I am not trying to nutride either way. My hope was to show from my experience in talking with people from both groups what their mentality was and try to show there is value and valid points of view in each.


I think you hit it on the head. They are good points. Again I'm just saying TMA is unrealistic in what they critique everyone else with.


I'll give you my perspective instead of trying to use yours. when UFC 1-4 came out my TMA group sat around and talked ****. Please, I would do this, rules that, deadly eye gouge this, hair pull that, pressure point this, biting that, kick to the nuts, hair pull etc...

Well, as I woke up all that **** applies to a "sport fighter" everything above can be and sometimes is used. Yeah it is illegal. Look at the UFC 52 someone got kicked in the nuts and still won the fight. Gracie used a Hair pull to win one of his fights. What was funny was we were rooting for the other guy (kimo?) when he stopped Gracie from finishing the competition. Not realizing at the time that Gracie had won from the dreaded Hair pull. (Okay submission but, the hair pull freaked the guy out enough for Gracie to get the submission.)

This is what I'm getting at. TMA and non-competing MA have this unrealistic belief system that validates friendly training over an unknown opponent.. Notice I'm not saying they can't fight. Just saying, "training to fight my friends is just as good as training to fight an unknown," is unrealistic.

Musha dori is not practical *sigh and here in the Gracie video they do the same damn jointlock! the Ganseki nage is very similar to any hip throw in fact Takamatsu
trained with Kano founder of Judo.I pointed to actual video footage of the Gracies
doing the same thing we do in Taijutsu.By the way Musha dori will work against a
resisiting opponent.I asked my wife who also trains in Taijutsu to perform Musha dori.My wife is 5'1 and is a lightweight.I grabed her in Kumi Uchi using both hands
when she performed the lock the lock was correct and under the top part of the elbow and close into the body I used sheer power to try to get out of the lock
after moving around for 15-30seconds I managed to get free on a sucessul lock.
We then proceeded again slow she was under bottom part of elbow causing an incorrect application on Musha dori(on purpose)I got out in 10-20seconds sheer force.We did it a third time this time in real time as soon as the lock was applied
and I started to resist she felt it and turned and brought me to the ground.
again I am stronger than her I wanted to try this on someone who is weaker than myself to prove it is correct technique that works not so much strength.
Another example is Ganseki Nage I used this throw against a friend who out weigh me by 100lbs(I weigh merely 145 he was 245)I asked him to resist the throw it did not matter because again correct technique overcame sheer force.
I always try my techniques against resisting Uke because I want to prove to myself that these techniques work.If someone had training in the X-kan and could not get this technique to work against a resisting opponent than it is YOU not the technique that is not working correctly.I would also like to say that being held in Kumi uchi allows alot of henka.I am growing kinda weary of the mudsling thrown
at the x-kan remember the training clips on the net are just that training clips
I am sure we can look at many video clips of different arts and say whats not effective.

No you posted a clip of a double shoulder grab. This technique is found in a myriad of MA.

Fine then post a clip that looks like the Gracie video. Neither one of those two clips you posted did the technique like the gracie clip. One was a pull and a leg trip the other is a shoulder lock throw with no hip or leg involved. Again they start similar but the end products are completely different.



Maybe when you do it You do right. That sounds suspiciously like the "I have the real _ing _hun" argument.

Mikkyou, I am glad you are training with resistance on drills but that isnt quite what we are talking about. What is important is developing the skill level of a technique against an opponent where you can use it against a fully resisting opponent who is also trying to defeat you with a technique of his own. Training techniques in isolation in usefull for a start but combat is a dynamic ever changing equation and the proven best training method is against another individual fully resisting you and trying to defeat and counter you with his own techniques. Remember all combat at it essence is one man trying to defeat the other.
Fighting against multiple opponents, armed opponents are primariy only modifiers of that single basic principle. The best way to learn to fight is to fight and thus sparring, randori etc full contact is a core element for attaining true fighting skill. Alone sparring is incomplete and other training experiences are needed but to neglect this core is fundamentally dangerous.

I doubt Hatsumi or any other of the high ranks have ever had to truly fight and if so it was probably a long time ago. They are basing their training on an older repetition based method that was proven less effective by Kano in Japan many years ago. Dont let tradition get in the way of progress unless your intention is undergoing historical training methods rather than modern more effective methods.

I have done the training you experience for many years. One of those video clips is a dojo where I spent two years of my training in traijitsu. I know the difference btw what you can get out of the traditional bujinkan method and what you can get by having aliveness in your training.

By the way Musha dori will work against a
resisiting opponent.I asked my wife who also trains in Taijutsu to perform Musha dori.My wife is 5'1 and is a lightweight.I grabed her in Kumi Uchi using both hands
when she performed the lock the lock was correct and under the top part of the elbow and close into the body I used sheer power to try to get out of the lock
after moving around for 15-30seconds I managed to get free on a sucessul lock.
We then proceeded again slow she was under bottom part of elbow causing an incorrect application on Musha dori(on purpose)I got out in 10-20seconds sheer force.We did it a third time this time in real time as soon as the lock was applied
and I started to resist she felt it and turned and brought me to the ground.
again I am stronger than her I wanted to try this on someone who is weaker than myself to prove it is correct technique that works not so much strength.
Another example is Ganseki Nage I used this throw against a friend who out weigh me by 100lbs(I weigh merely 145 he was 245)I asked him to resist the throw it did not matter because again correct technique overcame sheer force.
I always try my techniques against resisting Uke because I want to prove to myself that these techniques work.If someone had training in the X-kan and could not get this technique to work against a resisting opponent than it is YOU not the technique that is not working correctly.I would also like to say that being held in Kumi uchi allows alot of henka.I am growing kinda weary of the mudsling thrown
at the x-kan remember the training clips on the net are just that training clips
I am sure we can look at many video clips of different arts and say whats not effective.


Looks like everyone is pretty much done. Look read all the posts. Get your bearings okay. Now in previous posts we addressed what you just put up.


1) Your wife ISN't a resisting opponent compared to a MMA fighter fighting an unknown opponent.

2) Your gym ISN'T the same as a MMA fighter fighting an unknown opponent you know these people.

3) Your Instructor/leader is not a resisting opponent as compared to a MMA fighter's unknown opponent.

This is my argument. Why??/ Because you and your wife love each other the real threat is not there. The gym is for training you injure someone severely you are gone. Plus, in the back of your mind you are NOT trying to win or survive. Your instructor/leader is both of the above in a teacher student relationship.