The problem is that there are way too many people who have an excessive fear of getting hurt. A little caution is always usefull and one should train carefully but also trying to excessively avoid pain or effort is foolish.

In the Bujinkan many members see Hatsumi seemingly throwing his attackers with ease and little effort. Yet his attackers are all high ranking students under him that dont want to make him look bad. I seriously doubt Hatsumi could pull off the techniques as easily as he shows it on the stage against a true opponent. This is not to Hatsumi cant fight. Its just that the image he gives of his own abilities is unrealistic and sets unrealistic expectations for his followers.

Also, I think that if people only got used to taking a few punches this great fear of sparring would go away. There wouldn't be any of this need for posturing and claiming that if you want to actually do sparring it means you have a penis size complex, or something like that.

Just a few quick observations I have...

1) Anyone that has been in any real fight will tell you that it is a 'brawl'. Most of the time it's one guy hitting another so fast he can't react. Now you can train in all the ninja 'tactics' you want and think yourself prepared for a real combat situation...but you're only lying to yourself. No one that has the intent to harm you is going to slow, they aren't going to let you know that the punch is coming, and they sure as hell aren't going to let you react before they're done. I'm not even talking about a trained fighter, I'm talking about your run of the mill guy who you managed to piss off.

2) You can't claim ninjitsu trains you to escape from a situation, you may understand the principle of escape but that doesn't mean your better prepared than the common person. There is NO (and when I mean no, I mean NO) way you can ever prepare for a suprise attack. Let's say you do manage to repel someone hitting you multiple times in the face (if your not sparring I doubt you would but that's another matter), back on topic, you block and defend yourself from all these fast blows...then some random buddy of his hits you in the back with a 2x4, or punches you in the ear...yeah, train for that. Guess what? You can never expect and there is no way in hell you can block someone swinging a glass bottle at the back of your head no matter how 'real' you train.

3) MMA techniques have been around long long long long long before any ninjitsu technique appeared. Why? Because it's simple movements. Punch, hook, kick, knee, elbow, clinch. Sure, some of the ground fighting moves have new names, but I assure you that choking someone out, or squeezing there calf muscle till they are crying in pain has been around much longer before any move like 'knife hand strike to the throat' was even invented.

Yes, some MMA practitioners train for competition, but MMA is about mixing martial arts (as the name clearly says). MMA is about getting rid of the farcical mystic beliefs and going straight to what's quick and simple. The average joe can't take five or six punches to the face without falling down and allowing you time to make a quick exit...why? Because punches are coming fast.

In competition the fighters know the other is trained, and that's why they aren't coming in blazing with punches, because the other will counter. In the street you don't know what to expect and if your getting punched in the face 20 times by a guy 40 pounds heavier than you and who has been thinking of kicking your ass guess what? No secret 'ninjitsu' move is going to help you escape.

What will save you is the ability to take full power blows to the face, know how to punch back and know how to get your opponents guard down (i.e. taking him to the ground, attacking his groin, etc.). The only thing I've seen a ninjitsu practitioner do properly is look like an idiot and waste his time learning 'ancient' moves that have no meaning. Train to stop a naginata attack? Great, a knife is smaller, comes faster and more times...and you won't be able to deal with the pain.

Just a few quick observations I have...

1) Anyone that has been in any real fight will tell you that it is a 'brawl'. Most of the time it's one guy hitting another so fast he can't react. Now you can train in all the ninja 'tactics' you want and think yourself prepared for a real combat situation...but you're only lying to yourself. No one that has the intent to harm you is going to slow, they aren't going to let you know that the punch is coming, and they sure as hell aren't going to let you react before they're done. I'm not even talking about a trained fighter, I'm talking about your run of the mill guy who you managed to piss off.

2) You can't claim ninjitsu trains you to escape from a situation, you may understand the principle of escape but that doesn't mean your better prepared than the common person. There is NO (and when I mean no, I mean NO) way you can ever prepare for a suprise attack. Let's say you do manage to repel someone hitting you multiple times in the face (if your not sparring I doubt you would but that's another matter), back on topic, you block and defend yourself from all these fast blows...then some random buddy of his hits you in the back with a 2x4, or punches you in the ear...yeah, train for that. Guess what? You can never expect and there is no way in hell you can block someone swinging a glass bottle at the back of your head no matter how 'real' you train.

3) MMA techniques have been around long long long long long before any ninjitsu technique appeared. Why? Because it's simple movements. Punch, hook, kick, knee, elbow, clinch. Sure, some of the ground fighting moves have new names, but I assure you that choking someone out, or squeezing there calf muscle till they are crying in pain has been around much longer before any move like 'knife hand strike to the throat' was even invented.

Yes, some MMA practitioners train for competition, but MMA is about mixing martial arts (as the name clearly says). MMA is about getting rid of the farcical mystic beliefs and going straight to what's quick and simple. The average joe can't take five or six punches to the face without falling down and allowing you time to make a quick exit...why? Because punches are coming fast.

In competition the fighters know the other is trained, and that's why they aren't coming in blazing with punches, because the other will counter. In the street you don't know what to expect and if your getting punched in the face 20 times by a guy 40 pounds heavier than you and who has been thinking of kicking your ass guess what? No secret 'ninjitsu' move is going to help you escape.

What will save you is the ability to take full power blows to the face, know how to punch back and know how to get your opponents guard down (i.e. taking him to the ground, attacking his groin, etc.). The only thing I've seen a ninjitsu practitioner do properly is look like an idiot and waste his time learning 'ancient' moves that have no meaning. Train to stop a naginata attack? Great, a knife is smaller, comes faster and more times...and you won't be able to deal with the pain.

I'm going to hazard a guess then that the "ninjutsu" you saw wasn't actual taijutsu or one of the bujutsu studied in the Bujinkan. That sounds nothing like I have encountered training with anyone legit.

"Ninjutsu" is NOT a combat art. It is not fighting. It is thinking. Taijutsu is combat. Jujutsu is combat. Koshijutsu is combat. Koppojutsu is combat. All of these things are the Bujinkan's actual fighting arts, and the techniques, while ancient in origin, have been changed and adapted to suit the needs of whatever time they are in. We train with knives and guns just as much as we train with katana and naginata. We train empty-handed just as much as we train with weapons. I've been hit, kicked, punched, slapped, thrown, beaten, bruised, battered, etc and so on all in my training. Most nights I come home with fresh contusions and bruises. The Bujinkan isn't gentle, and if you've been watching something that is, chances are you're watching a bad teacher rip off his or her students.

Take last night for example. One of the drills basically involved me being the test dummy for everyone in the dojo to test out kicking the legs on. I've got at least three bruises on each of my calves and it hurts to walk on my right leg.

What is taught in the Bujinkan is what is taught in most legit martial arts schools -- strikes, grappling, throwing, escapes, evasions, etc. We know how to punch every bit as much we know how to kick, grapple, lock up an opponent, choke, tie up, knife, strangle, whatever else you can think of. And we train hard in doing so. Don't believe me? Stop by.

Fighting very often is about brawling, it's just that sportfighters brawl with tested strategy. The one thing I've come to notice is that fighting is never like you imagine and many times very counter-intuitive to what theory says should and should not work. You can spend years doing hard training practicing techniques but still get pummeled because what you were practicing was wrong.

All the more reason why the Bujinkan, like certain combat sports, is a good art for teaching you how to fight. Never once have I been told that I have to do a technique perfectly or that this technique will stop any attack. Taijutsu is about learning to use your body in defensive ways. Techniques are fine for demonstration, but it is the henka which make up the difference between what's going to happen and what's not. Fights are unpredictable, and therefore training in something that makes fights to some degree predictable isn't beneficial (not accusing MMA of this, by the way. I happen to think MMA are beneficial and can teach one how to fight). Training SOLELY for competitions is like training solely against an unresisting opponent. You get too used to things happening the way the rules or your expectations dictate that they should be. Really training for self-defense involves not relying on techniques but rather on the instincts and abilities you develop in training. For instance, if someone comes at me with a knife, I'm not going to say "aha, Lane, now you practiced this a week ago. When he comes in, step to the outside, insert tab a into slot b, blah blah blah"

I'm going to watch what the guy does and try not to get cut, and hopefully either manage to get away or get his knife away from him. And I'm not going to have a set of techniques I plan on using, because how I respond to a threat is dictated by the unique circumstances of each encounter. It's very well to say all of this online, but the fact is that fights are unpredictable and no martial art (not TMA or MMA) can guarantee that your ass won't be meat in a real fight. They can equip with tools to better survive, but it's up to the practitioner to decide how effective the training is.

Lets stop talking around the question. So do you spar or not. If you do spar how you do it. If you dont spar what are your reasons? By sparring I mean two individuals attacking full force against each other with each other trying to submit or defeat the other opponent. It can be striking, grappling or both.

Training SOLELY for competitions is like training solely against an unresisting opponent.

Oh really? Either a poor choice of words/simile or flat-out wrong.

Moving on, do you wear black and/or hooded uniforms during practice?

If so, why?

1) Anyone that has been in any real fight will tell you that it is a 'brawl'. Most of the time it's one guy hitting another so fast he can't react. Now you can train in all the ninja 'tactics' you want and think yourself prepared for a real combat situation...but you're only lying to yourself. No one that has the intent to harm you is going to slow, they aren't going to let you know that the punch is coming, and they sure as hell aren't going to let you react before they're done. I'm not even talking about a trained fighter, I'm talking about your run of the mill guy who you managed to piss off.

Interesting because in my Ninpou taijutsu there are no slow punches,and like I said before my practicer can come in anyway he wants throws as many puches he wants,clinch shoot whatever...If someone is coming at me with multi punches I am am not going to block them..I tell this to my training group :move,angle,look for the opening.one of the first things in Ninpou taijutsu is moving at 45*degrees
one does not have to use Ichimonji no kata one can simply use taisabaki which consist of correct distancing,timing,and angling.

2) You can't claim ninjitsu trains you to escape from a situation, you may understand the principle of escape but that doesn't mean your better prepared than the common person. There is NO (and when I mean no, I mean NO) way you can ever prepare for a suprise attack. Let's say you do manage to repel someone hitting you multiple times in the face (if your not sparring I doubt you would but that's another matter), back on topic, you block and defend yourself from all these fast blows...then some random buddy of his hits you in the back with a 2x4, or punches you in the ear...yeah, train for that. Guess what? You can never expect and there is no way in hell you can block someone swinging a glass bottle at the back of your head no matter how 'real' you train.


Actually that is the aim of Ninjutsu survival being able to deal with any situation
and overcome it.As for the suprised attack the godan test prepares one for that
but skeptic have their own disbeliefs.Its funny that you say we are not able to deal with an attack catching us from behind I would think your martial art teaches you to also feel his killer energy?!


3) MMA techniques have been around long long long long long before any ninjitsu technique appeared. Why? Because it's simple movements. Punch, hook, kick, knee, elbow, clinch. Sure, some of the ground fighting moves have new names, but I assure you that choking someone out, or squeezing there calf muscle till they are crying in pain has been around much longer before any move like 'knife hand strike to the throat' was even invented.

*sigh we are a mixed martial art we consist of 36different arts we use anything to defeat our opponent :spitting,throwing anything we have in our hands,biting,pulling hair.Speaking on the choke I would think using your fist is simpler or picking up a stick is much more ancient than such a complex jujutsu move that was most likely made during civilization.

What will save you is the ability to take full power blows to the face, know how to punch back and know how to get your opponents guard down (i.e. taking him to the ground, attacking his groin, etc.). The only thing I've seen a ninjitsu practitioner do properly is look like an idiot and waste his time learning 'ancient' moves that have no meaning. Train to stop a naginata attack? Great, a knife is smaller, comes faster and more times...and you won't be able to deal with the pain.


Have taken full blown hits to the face it happens I broke my wrist and foot in Taijutsu no big deal.Dakenjutsu allows us to punch back we don't just use a Tsuki lunge punch we can also use the same boxing methods.Glad you brought up Naginata because I used a sword to help my student learn correct distancing,and timing,see the idea is if you can not move out of the way from a sword or Naginata
then how can you effectly move from a fist....its just a drill for Mutodori...I also use a knife for training like I said Uke can attack anyway he wants with his knife I want him to stab me I want him to prove to me the technquies are worthless because when we practice thats what were doing proving this art works.If ever anyone wants to see how we train they are welcome to email me at mountainalchemist@yahoo.com

I would think your martial art teaches you to also feel his killer energy

What are you taking about?

*sigh*

Sakki, right? Extrasensory perception of hostile intent on demand and combat-reliable.

Actually, if you have that, why not go and get the Randi million?

I used a sword to help my student learn correct distancing,and timing,see the idea is if you can not move out of the way from a sword or Naginata
then how can you effectly move from a fist


If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball.



If you can dodge traffic, you can dodge a ball.
:sad7:

Actually that is the aim of Ninjutsu survival being able to deal with any situation
and overcome it.As for the suprised attack the godan test prepares one for that
but skeptic have their own disbeliefs.Its funny that you say we are not able to deal with an attack catching us from behind I would think your martial art teaches you to also feel his killer energy?!

But if you are staring at the sky, won't you miss all the heavenly glory?

*sigh*

Sakki, right? Extrasensory perception of hostile intent on demand and combat-reliable.

Actually, if you have that, why not go and get the Randi million?
Actually IMHO Sakki is not metaphysical but purely physical. All animal have a sense of danger. Go hunt deer you can be covered in rut, not moving and you stare at them and they scamper off. It is that feeling you get if someone comes up behind you and stands there. You don't know they are there but you can 'feel' them. But even if you can develop this skill you cannot be ON 24/7. Awareness is more important.

Actually IMHO Sakki is not metaphysical but purely physical. All animal have a sense of danger. Go hunt deer you can be covered in rut, not moving and you stare at them and they scamper off. It is that feeling you get if someone comes up behind you and stands there. You don't know they are there but you can 'feel' them. But even if you can develop this skill you cannot be ON 24/7. Awareness is more important.


Rut won't save you - deer are animals, not morons - other deer covered in mating stink don't sneak up behind them with a tang of gun-oil under their main smell. You gotta be attuned to the wind and the terrain.

1) Anyone that has been in any real fight will tell you that it is a 'brawl'. Most of the time it's one guy hitting another so fast he can't react. Now you can train in all the ninja 'tactics' you want and think yourself prepared for a real combat situation...but you're only lying to yourself. No one that has the intent to harm you is going to slow, they aren't going to let you know that the punch is coming, and they sure as hell aren't going to let you react before they're done. I'm not even talking about a trained fighter, I'm talking about your run of the mill guy who you managed to piss off.

This comes down largely to being attentive (not paranoid, since you'll probably just see **** that isn't there while missing all the "good" stuff along with the bad), and personal conduct. If you "live well" you should be able to avoid the conditions where this kind of brawl is likely to occur. Most "real fights" I've seen or heard about outside a professional position (where TMAs are often most successful) came down to pride, and they frankly deserved what they got.

I've gone through my whole life and avoided fights like that. The one time I was backed into a corner was being mugged at gunpoint, and I saw that from a mile away but didn't trust my gut. And frankly I give a lot of credit to mutodori weapon evasion drills and Buj training on the whole for my mental and emotional clarity within that situation, and getting out WITHOUT a struggle.


2) You can't claim ninjitsu trains you to escape from a situation, you may understand the principle of escape but that doesn't mean your better prepared than the common person. There is NO (and when I mean no, I mean NO) way you can ever prepare for a suprise attack. Let's say you do manage to repel someone hitting you multiple times in the face (if your not sparring I doubt you would but that's another matter), back on topic, you block and defend yourself from all these fast blows...then some random buddy of his hits you in the back with a 2x4, or punches you in the ear...yeah, train for that. Guess what? You can never expect and there is no way in hell you can block someone swinging a glass bottle at the back of your head no matter how 'real' you train.


As for suprise attacks, I'm sure there are many a war veteran who will disagree that there is no way to sense hostile intent. Call it instinct, sakki, pure luck, or star magic, it happens. How/why it happens is another discussion, I'm guessing it helps to actually study and practice the very thing you are defending against (if you know how to set up an ambush you're in a better position to spot on and avoid likely positions for one). And most of the Bujinkan ryu have exercises for launching suprise attacks. There's nothing metaphysical about knowing where not to be by understanding the strategies of what you're trying to avoid.

The same drills made me think something was up with that guy who mugged me. I guess not leaving the situation kinda proved to me in a way. Koto ryu has a drill where the two students casually walk toward each other, and one designated "attacker" tries to sneak in a neck strike. That is some simple valuable training! There is something to be said for studying strategy and body language for these kinds of things. The awareness process opens up a lot more than seeing and attack coming, too, you simply see more of the world. It's hard not to get caught up in your own head, but its worth working toward.


3) MMA techniques have been around long long long long long before any ninjitsu technique appeared. Why? Because it's simple movements. Punch, hook, kick, knee, elbow, clinch. Sure, some of the ground fighting moves have new names, but I assure you that choking someone out, or squeezing there calf muscle till they are crying in pain has been around much longer before any move like 'knife hand strike to the throat' was even invented.

I'm not sure how "knife hand strike to the throat" is more complicated than this "hook punch to the floating rib" but whatever man :XXjester:

Koto ryu has a drill where the two students casually walk toward each other, and one designated "attacker" tries to sneak in a neck strike. That is some simple valuable training!
I've done similar training in karate class where the entire class casually walks around, and there are 2-3 "psychos" hidden in the crowd who attack you without warning. While I found myself defending against the sneak attacks succesfully, it was only because I was unusually alert and expecting it to happen. I can honestly say that this training will not do a damn thing for me on the street, as I will be immersed in other thoughts like any other normal person.