Like I mentioned in my previous post, when last Sunday I was training with an experienced Bujinkan member. He had ZERO sparring experience, yet he was able to apply his training under pressure from resisting, non-complient , un-scripted and un-predictable attacks. This really installed some added excitement and faith in the art, for me personally (and that’s all that matters !)Do you mean an actual sparring session here, or some kind of attack circle type drill?

Hatsumi-san gives instructors great freedom to teach how they personally see fit.
Soke does, but if most of the Bujinkan really believed that, then why do I get SO much flack for training alive like those 'sport guys'. I lived trained and interpeded for Soke and Nagato Sensei for while living in Japan for 7 yrs. I can say that seeing and talking with tons of peole who do their pilgramage to Japan each year. Most don't trian in an alive manner and dojos randori I have see in the US is nothing like combat sport sparring.

I feel for you in more ways than you can imagine. It sucks being the lone voice of reason. That sport vs MMA argument is huge in TMA take a look at KFO. What is funny is you are deemed a traitor if you believe in MMA training. The funny thing is no TMAs will ever tell the stories of those guys getting there asses kicked in "The Street." How many boxers do you hear about getting beat up in the street. I can't name one. How mant TMA do you hear about getting beat up in the street. Many.

See I had the same wake up call. I only watched a BJJ class. All I could think was how much better I would be if we practiced 45 minutes of straight techniques learning, applying, and resisting. I do like kata, it is similar in my eye to shadow boxing or punching a bag but, you need resistance.

How you practice is how you will fight end of story.

The stupidest part is that MMA isn't much different from what TMAs used to be back when they were at their peak of performance. Actually, it's not different at all. In fact, it's how almost every Fist was created to begin with. Constantly being tested, refined and evolved through pressured resistance and alive training. Especially with groups of people who specialized in different areas of proven combat. They kept training, sparring and blending methods with one another consistently.

Things are so lost now in that respect. It's sad, really...

Soke does, but if most of the Bujinkan really believed that, then why do I get SO much flack for training alive like those 'sport guys'. I lived trained and interpeded for Soke and Nagato Sensei for while living in Japan for 7 yrs. I can say that seeing and talking with tons of peole who do their pilgramage to Japan each year. Most don't trian in an alive manner and dojos randori I have see in the US is nothing like combat sport sparring.

Perhaps this comes down to the fact that Budo Ninpo Taijutsu, has a completely different "operating system" compared to most styles, in particular "sports based" methods of training. Have you ever asked Soke why he's against "alive/sparring" methods of training ? Other than the fact that he believes it creates and ingrains bad habits ?

Perhaps this comes down to the fact that Budo Ninpo Taijutsu, has a completely different "operating system" compared to most styles, in particular "sports based" methods of training. Have you ever asked Soke why he's against "alive/sparring" methods of training ? Other than the fact that he believes it creates and ingrains bad habits ?

How do you know that he has said it creates bad habits???????

I have heard him say that sparring is dangerous. Before 1998, I had heard from Nagato that sparring was a good idea if the practicioners knew what the hell they are doing.

Sometime in 98-99 Hatsumi said that people shouldn't spar. The change was a result of some fucking idiot somewhere getting hurt from sparring type practice (rumor was it was sword training).

Not that it matters, sparring is a cornerstone of every martial art because it prepares the practicioner. Hatsumi also suggests skipping breakfast, never waking up at the same time everyday and erratic schedules to be more ninja like.

Its funny that the only half baked idea that everyone follows is the one that helps them avoid having to actually prove their bullshit works.

Thats why Dale and Ben Cole advocate it so much, they would probably get their mudholes stomped in.

And how is it a completely different operating system????? Its fighting, it operates just like other martial arts do, identical techniques can be found in other martial arts......

How do you know that he has said it creates bad habits???????

I've heard this multiple times from different Shihan on MAP and from members who have trained in Japan in Sokes class.




And how is it a completely different operating system????? Its fighting, it operates just like other martial arts do, identical techniques can be found in other martial arts......

So Judo practitioners fight/spar the same way as Bujinkan/Karate/Wing Chun/Boxing practitioners ? I'm not referencing to techniques per say, I'm pointing out the different "operating system" in regards to other elements such as footwork/stances/application/protocol etc.

BTW Mongo, are you Don. F Draeger in the real world ?

The thing that needs clarification however is, does that "operating system" consistantly produce results, and how have these results been measured?

I am a big Donn Draeger nutrider...........

Judo and those such sparring methods are only restricted to what skills are being pressure tested. Judo randori is no striking but throws and ground work is good.

The skills all run off of the same idea. Boxer's refine punching to a science, kickboxers/MT with kicking and within their rule set, etc.

BJk needs to refine the application of its techniques into usable at full speed, full resistance. Once that happens, you will notice similarities to "sport" martial arts and a drift from the Kata style tecnniques.


In every martial art, kamae/stances are fluid because they should be part of the movement of the skills that you are applying. Kamae will vary in the beginning but I bet that once you start sparring, it will take on similarities to sport methods.

The thing that needs clarification however is, does that "operating system" consistantly produce results, and how have these results been measured?

Basing an assumption that it doesn't on different training methods doesn't really seem logical IMO. Virus seeing how you're /were a Yondan in the BJK, can you honestly say that everything you learnt in that time is "ineffective" ?

I am a big Donn Draeger nutrider...........

Judo and those such sparring methods are only restricted to what skills are being pressure tested. Judo randori is no striking but throws and ground work is good.

The skills all run off of the same idea. Boxer's refine punching to a science, kickboxers/MT with kicking and within their rule set, etc.

BJk needs to refine the application of its techniques into usable at full speed, full resistance. Once that happens, you will notice similarities to "sport" martial arts and a drift from the Kata style tecnniques.


In every martial art, kamae/stances are fluid because they should be part of the movement of the skills that you are applying. Kamae will vary in the beginning but I bet that once you start sparring, it will take on similarities to sport methods.

I see your point. BTW here is an example of comparing "operating systems" by your best buddy Ben Cole, I'm inclined to agree with him (in a non-biased way, honest !)


Moreover, if you do decide to train in Judo, remember that you are forcing yourself to learn an "operating system" that fundamentally differs from BBT.

If someone comes at you focusing upon your lapel and sleeve, in BBT, you might punch their arm, sumo slap them in the face, then move in for ganseki nage. In Judo, however, you allow them to take the grip, while you focus your efforts on your grip. As was posted earlier, whoever obtains the advantageous grip will win. In Judo, your sensei will look at you funny if you think to drop your weight back to 45 degrees, shuto your opponent in the face, then do a wrist lock that slams him face first into the mat.

Your mentality will change from "protect self from touching" to "protect self from disadvantageous grip." Those are very different thresholds for movement. Please keep this in mind.

Also, for Judoka, ippongachi (e.g. "one-point wins") are the ultimate accomplishment. The ippongachi (http://universiade.fjct.fit.ac.jp/results/res_ju/e/ju01411/ju12.html) is awarded for the perfect throw that results in automatic win of the match.

In the Bujinkan, we don't care how pretty it is, so long as the bad guy goes bouncy bouncy, we are happy. http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif I know hundreds of ways of getting the bad guy to go down into concrete that would never get me any points in Judo, and may even find me on the losing end of the hansokugachi (e.g. "foul win").

Be aware of the potential for these differences in operating systems. They could mean the difference between life and death some day.

Soke does, but if most of the Bujinkan really believed that, then why do I get SO much flack for training alive like those 'sport guys'. .

You might burst the bubble on those more interested in mystical warrior fantasy over combat reality.

You might burst the bubble on those more interested in mystical warrior fantasy over combat reality.

You could say the same thing about Aikido :icon_idea

I understand what Ben is saying but his logic is flawed. Judo does perfect throws, until they become reliable against resistance. People get hurt and knocked unconcious by throws all the time (these people also have a higher level of awareness to being thrown and their ukemi is generally of very high level).

The BJK's varied and erratic approach doesn't grant it any reliablilty because there is no refinement through sparring.

I understand what Ben is saying but his logic is flawed. Judo does perfect throws, until they become reliable against resistance. People get hurt and knocked unconcious by throws all the time (these people also have a higher level of awareness to being thrown and their ukemi is generally of very high level).


Mongo,
I disagree. Ben isn't criticizing Judo as far as I can tell, his points are valid. He's stating that the Bujinkan, are the ones who don't in fact place a lot of emphasis on "perfect throws" as opposed to Judo, who do indeed perfect their throwing, seeing how it's the main area of expertise.



The BJK's varied and erratic approach doesn't grant it any reliablilty because there is no refinement through sparring.

Again that's debateable, and dependent on the dojo/instructor. You have to bear in mind that students can indeed have the freedom to train outside the dojo, perfecting their week areas.

Limited time to train, the methods used, and the art makes attaining competence in everything almost impossible.

The best means is to find what you personally want to fight like (ie Grappling, Striking, weapons, etc) and find the mixture that suits your personal preference.

The BJK could work, but it needs pressure testing, sparring, and giving guys like Ben Cole and Dale a nice healthy glass of shut the **** up.

I don't endorse Judo only as a pure self defense art, but it is a really good base. Just as other sport arts are.

I don't endorse the standard BJK methods because of the impotent mentality. There, generally, is no basis to build skills off of.

For example, if a Judoka has to fight a boxer, he won't out punch him. If he can get his hands on him, he has a set of skills that are reliable and have been pressure tested to the point of being a natural skill set.

For standard BJK practicioner, the skills at every range is mediocre. Can punch, kick, clinch, throw but all of it is not refined until it is that natural core skill. That is acceptable to fight an unskilled person, but it will go to **** once it is tested against anyone with strong skills in any of those areas.

Again that's debateable, and dependent on the dojo/instructor. You have to bear in mind that students can indeed have the freedom to train outside the dojo, perfecting their week areas.


That is fine, but in my opinion, most of the Bujinkan is flawed when judged against martial arts that are skilled in certain elements. The standard reason that it remains flawed is because of the established ways of training.