To all the people in the Bujinkan who criticize it -- why do you continue to train in the Bujinkan if you feel you need to cross-train? Why not just stick in the arts you need to cross train in?

To get more training time in. Because a lot of the principles are sound and I try and see how they apply to my other arts, which gives me a better understanding of what I'm doing which in turn speeds up the training process. Because our BBT teacher is also a civil engineer and thus laughs at the mystical mumbo-jumbo when it crops up. Etc.

By the way, it's practitioners like you who prove some of katana's points: i.e. even if the "official" line is that cross-training is good, the social climate of the BBT does nothing to encourage it.

How many boxers do you hear about getting beat up in the street. I can't name one. How mant TMA do you hear about getting beat up in the street. Many.


Just to clarify I have heard of boxers being beaten up in the street... (one or two have even made the papers (one in Australia... may have to dig that one up)) and

wtf is he on about when you throw paper in the air... jesus...

i looked into a booj school when i was looking to cross train...although the instructor was tough and fast it was because he trained in boxing, muay thai and silat in addition to thaijutsu. He said straight to me "THese guys can't fight, they have never taken a punch and wouldn't know how to react to one". They 'trained' hard, but they never sparred and even the instructor saw that as a major defect.

To all the people in the Bujinkan who criticize it -- why do you continue to train in the Bujinkan if you feel you need to cross-train? Why not just stick in the arts you need to cross train in?[/QUOTE]


Ok were have you been? Tell Ken shamrock that see how stupid it sounds "hey why dont you stick to Greco roman wresling and dont train in boxing because you only need to strike at all"

and another thing in ninjutsu ninjas did cross train for example DAKENTAIJUTSU is tha art in ninjutsu for striking and jutaijutsu was the art for GRAPLING why the hell do you think there are so many arts in ninjutsu any way.

One last thing by the end of the ninja era, history records ninjas were using and carrying rifles that sounds like cross training to me, one of the reasons why ninjas were so efective is because they were not tradisionalists like the samurais but now adays alot of ninjutsu practitioners fall in the same mistakes as the samurais... morons.

It was not only ninja who used muskets. (Not rifles, by the way.)

For example, Oda Nobunaga used them as part of his main formations.

Thanks for the support. I said ALMOST makes me feel like quiting. So don't worry I plan on bring over as many to the 'dark side' as possible :evil7:
I just needed to vent!
Wounded Ronin thanks if your PM inbox fills up you will know what happened :lol:

By the way, do you think that the BJJ guys will come over for a challenge? If so, I think some video might be in order... :new_smile
I dout they would let it be video taped. We all know the results anyway. My 1st SBG seminar I had trained taijutsu for 16 yrs and I got tapped like a type writter. The only area I did OK was clinch and mainly because the seminar atendees had done BJJ and boxing/kickboxing but no Grecco or judo.

To all the people in the Bujinkan who criticize it -- why do you continue to train in the Bujinkan if you feel you need to cross-train? Why not just stick in the arts you need to cross train in?


Ok were have you been? Tell Ken shamrock that see how stupid it sounds "hey why dont you stick to Greco roman wresling and dont train in boxing because you only need to strike at all"

and another thing in ninjutsu ninjas did cross train for example DAKENTAIJUTSU is tha art in ninjutsu for striking and jutaijutsu was the art for GRAPLING why the hell do you think there are so many arts in ninjutsu any way.

One last thing by the end of the ninja era, history records ninjas were using and carrying rifles that sounds like cross training to me, one of the reasons why ninjas were so efective is because they were not tradisionalists like the samurais but now adays alot of ninjutsu practitioners fall in the same mistakes as the samurais... morons.[/QUOTE]

Your points might be valid... if what the Bujinkan trained us in was solely "ninjutsu," but "ninjutsu" isn't a fighting art... it's a mental art. It's strategy. It's tricking your opponent. For actual fighting, the Bujinkan trains us in mainly seven different schools of unarmed combat -- two daikentaijutsu/jutaijutsu, one jujutsu, one strictly taijutsu (Togakure), two koppojutsu and one koshijutsu. We practice (on a regular basis) strikes, grappling, throws, locks, evasions, breakfalls, rolling, jumping and in general learning how to deal with an opponent, be they armed or unarmed. Sure, we also add in a lot of classical weaponry like the sword or staff, but we also train in the use of firearms and knives and modern weaponry as well. Hatsumi-sensei has said repeatedly that BBT is a living art. As new things come along, we incorporate them into the Bujinkan.

Of course, there still are fakes, frauds and bad teachers within the Bujinkan. No one will deny that. There are sensei who don't teach the techniques properly so they'll always look better than their students. There are sensei who never train their students the combat versions of the techniques. But I think those are the exception and not the rule. My question was aimed at people who trained in other arts (like boxing or BJJ) to supplement what they felt were "gaps" in the Bujinkan. Personally, I think if you apply your studies to the nine schools, you can learn how to grapple, strike, evade, defend against weapons, use weapons, etc... just as if you spent time training in another art. I can't say that my dojo doesn't train in other things besides the nine schools (we often study Western weaponry, fencing, or other martial arts styles tolearn how to defend against them), but no one sees a "deficiency" in the Bujinkan as a whole.

I think it comes down to how you train, not what you train in. Most bujinkan members won't say that combat sports or MMA is ineffective... it's just not what we do. Compeitions are fine, but they're not real fights. Combat sports teach one how to brawl, and they make tought fighters and opponents... and none of that means that they are any better or worse than arts like the Bujinkan. To each his or her own, and hard training is the only thing that will truly save your ass... not this art, not that art, not this teacher, not that teacher... only hard work.

Most bujinkan members won't say that combat sports or MMA is ineffective... it's just not what we do. Compeitions are fine, but they're not real fights.

You should maybe attend a local MMA fight sometime and then decide whether or not the two guys in the ring are really fighting or not. I assure you they are.

Alas, the critics of sportfighter training can't answer a simple question: Prove that what you do is more real than what sportfighting encompasses.

I think most sportfighters know what they're doing is not a "real fight" simply because a "real fight" can take on an infinite number of scenarios and situations. It's all about the fighting attributes you develop and sportfighters, I feel, develop a core set of attributes that better enable them to win should a "real fight" come into their lives.


Combat sports teach one how to brawl, and they make tought fighters and opponents... and none of that means that they are any better or worse than arts like the Bujinkan. To each his or her own, and hard training is the only thing that will truly save your ass... not this art, not that art, not this teacher, not that teacher... only hard work.

Fighting very often is about brawling, it's just that sportfighters brawl with tested strategy. The one thing I've come to notice is that fighting is never like you imagine and many times very counter-intuitive to what theory says should and should not work. You can spend years doing hard training practicing techniques but still get pummeled because what you were practicing was wrong.

Ninjutsu may have been great in the historical context it originated in, but in today's society you don't fight sword-wielding horse-riding opponents inside burning buildings while being sick. The only weapons you will face are handguns and knives and it's just not worth the risk to pull any ninja tricks when faced with either. Why can't these neo-ninjas just admit that their art is not optimal for modern day context?


While it has NOTHING to do with ninjutsu, learning some of the older "outdated" weapons is still beneficial. Sword work directly translates to bayonet fighting for those of us in the military, as well as learning how to fight in and against armor. Learning how to properly draw a sword or knife with your body as opposed to just your arm, directly translates to drawing a pistol. They all seem relevant to today. And I hope you don't think the ONLY weapons you will face will be a handgun or knife, you might be not-so-pleasantly surprised by a resourceful punk.


Shinbushi, I don't know who said the original quote, but not everyone is willing to test themselves or their knowledge. Great that you did/do and are willing to admit strengths and weaknesses of an art you obviously love. Have a beer on me. :qpepsi: Okay, it's a pepsi, but.............

There are alot of assumptions going on here, and I have to say that annoys me a bit. People seem to love assuming things about bujinkan budo taijutsu with no actual knowledge of the art, like the earlier comment that there's no ground game, when your ground game is very important to your taijutsu.

Anyway, this is not particularly important to the point I'm trying to make here.

The best advice I've seen on this thread is 'cross train.' Everyone should cross train! I don't care what art you take, or how invincible anyone training in it might claim it to be, there's always more to learn and cover. While Genbukan Ninpo Bugei is my primary style, I wouldn't give up the cross-training elements I've learned either. I wouldn't feel that I'm a 'complete' martial artist if I didn't also know boxing and grappling.

Daken Kihon and Tai Sabaki are awesome though, and totally useful and realistic in self defense. For non-ninjutsu folks out there, Tai Sabaki is body movement and Daken Kihon is destroying the weapon. Basically, it means move out of the way and whack the guy in the arm or leg.

Now, I'm sure there are a dozen of you guys on this board dying to find a way to make fun of that, and you will, but for the intelligent folks on this board I think we can all agree that when someone wants to hit you it's a good idea to move out of the way! I like to use my tai sabaki together with boxing.

If you want to become well rounded and learn to fight, you have to do some free sparring and some grappling. If you never learn to take a punch and then you get in a fight you'll be so shocked from getting hit once that you'll most likely get your ass beat. That's not good! I have never trained in Bujinkan, but from the way it sounds it seems as though alot of Bujinkan schools don't do this, they just stick to the wazas and gatas and all that crazy stuff. I mean hey, work that stuff, but work on actually pressure and chaos situations as well. Randori is awesome for that, especially when you do it right.

There are alot of assumptions going on here, and I have to say that annoys me a bit. People seem to love assuming things about bujinkan budo taijutsu with no actual knowledge of the art, like the earlier comment that there's no ground game, when your ground game is very important to your taijutsu.


Everyone makes assumptions. TMA assume that competiton fighting is ineffective because that isn't the way they train. Unless it is a fight to the death even street fights have rules. Yep. There are certain things you will not do because of laws (rules) that can turn around and bite you in the ass. Of course that is in America I am not speaking about other countries.

This is a Bujinkan Thread. The thread starter asked specific questions about what he felt was wrong with Bujinkan. Funny thing is many of the assumptions are coming from Bujinkan guys.



Just to clarify I have heard of boxers being beaten up in the street... (one or two have even made the papers (one in Australia... may have to dig that one up)) That is because you got lucky with Lennox Lewis you guys can't box. (joke)


Yeah but, it seems it is dispraportionate to the TMA guys.

Daken Kihon and Tai Sabaki are awesome though, and totally useful and realistic in self defense. For non-ninjutsu folks out there, Tai Sabaki is body movement and Daken Kihon is destroying the weapon. Basically, it means move out of the way and whack the guy in the arm or leg.
Since other systems do that much better I don't know why you would bother with ninjitsu if these are the primary beneficial skills.


Now, I'm sure there are a dozen of you guys on this board dying to find a way to make fun of that, and you will, but for the intelligent folks on this board I think we can all agree that when someone wants to hit you it's a good idea to move out of the way!
Yeah, but these "intelligent people" know that ninjitsu is not unique in this aspect.


I like to use my tai sabaki together with boxing.
Or you could, you know, combine boxing footwork with boxing.

I for one practice Ninpou taijutsu.When I train with my Uke it goes something like this:Uke is allowed to attack me any way he wants sometimes we might work on
Uke striking sometimes Uke shooting in for a takedown.The idea is Uke can throw any strike he wants I can counter anyway I want.If I try to apply a jointlock or throw Uke is allowed to resist(pulling arm back,overpower,apply a counter lock,punch,kick etc) by doing this I feel my training is more realistic because frankly in an actual confortation noone is going to stand there and let you apply
Ura Gyaku(wristlock)without resisting or hitting you as you apply it.
When I deal with my partner and training knife again he is allowed to strike anyway again,if i somehow grip his wrist at the right moment during Muto dori
obviously he is going to resist and try to cut me.I notice alot of Ninpo schools do not allow this realistic freedom even in Japan.On another note I see nothing wrong with supplementing other fields into our art.I have seen some groundwork
Kote Gaeshi,Osae Komi as well as some henka however I see nothing wrong with learning some Ne waza from Judo or Bjj to our taijutsu.

Having been in Bujinkan for many years and now training in boxing and BJJ, I see many more benefits than drawbacks with having full resistance grappling and and at least moderate and preferably full contact sparring in training taijitsu. Just like in BJJ some locks could be avoided untill the practioners are experienced (e.g. in my club ankle and knee locks arent allowed untill you are ok'd by the instructor to use). Taijitsu people mistake sparring as an end rather than a means. In other words if one trained solely to compete then an individual would focus only on sport specific techniques and thus may exclude training with or against weapons etc. So there could be some trade offs regarding self defense here because of the competitive focus. However if one looks at full resistance sparring as a means of training then that issue goes away. The intent with full resistance is to polish and further advance your knowledge of a technique. It provides feedback to your skills that you can get in no other way. Of course some techniques are to rough risky for training full contact, so you could continue to train them with the katas etc. Frankly the only other reasons not to spar full contact and resistance is either pre-existing physical limitations or fear of getting hurt or struck.

if you fear getting hurt you should not be training martial arts.