It's not the ninja/samurai/koryu/gendai whatever aspects of the Bujinkan that make so many of us skeptical of it (though I myself have had several teachers describe what I've been taught as "ninja fighting").

The crux of our argument is this: most Bujinkan dojo continue to train in a proven ineffective method of compliant drilling, scripted kata, and no pressure testing of their techniques. Instead of realizing this and working to fix it, Bujinkaners typically equivocate and rationalize their training methods, saying absolutely loony things like, "It's about timing and distance and feel."

That kind of training won't make anyone a fighter. It just won't. Let's suppose that A and B are both training to play baseball. A goes out every day and steps in the batting cages, works on his throwing mechanics, plays catch, and fields balls that his friend hits at him full speed. At the end of every session, A and his teammates scrimmage against each other to perfect their games by combining all of their skills into a real-time, full-speed environment.

B and his friend go out every day, and script out their plays. B says, "OK, let's pretend you're on first and someone hits a ground ball to me. I will throw it to the second baseman" *B mimes throwing it to the second baseman* "and then you'll be out. OK, let's switch!"

Which one of these two people would you want playing on your team?

That's not to say that the techniques used in the Bujinkan are "bad" or "ineffective." But the training methodology and mindset IS bad in too many dojo. I think one thing that would vastly improve the quality of training in Bujinkan dojo would be for some system of full-contact competitions to be instituted. Training for competition not only forces one to perfect his or her skills, but builds camaraderie and sportsmanship in the practitioner. Having switched from the Bujinkan to competitive arts, I can say that this element is sorely lacking.

There has been sparring and pressure testing in both of the bujinkan dojo I have been in. Being compliant is never appreciated, and not only that, but they arent fighting in a ring, so why would they train that way?

There is a huge lack of stability among the organization IMO, so maybe I just got to see the good dojo....

Baseball isnt a good analogy IMO because to play baseball, you practice baseball. There isnt a "sport baseball" and a "street baseball". The only way this analogy works is if you were talking about a institution like the UFC or something. That way, you could say "the best way to get good in the UFC is to practice fighitng like you are in the UFC".

There's no such thing as a "sport fight" and a "street fight" either. The goals and methods are virtually the same. A sport fight merely has more controls to ensure the safety of the participants, but the environmental changes of "the street" are not so different than a competitive fight doesn't accurately simulate them.

There is also a difference between practice and games in baseball (or golf, or football, or handball... all sports I have played at the competitive level of at least high school). But practice accurately simulates the games and allows you to test your skills in real time. And yes, the only way that one can win an event like the UFC is to practice, every day, like one intends to fight. This means full-contact sparring with your partners, alive drilling, and pressure testing your skills. "You play like you practice" is a maxim of every learned skill there is.


If your dojo spars and pressure tests, good for it. But that is not the norm nor the official party line of the Bujinkan, and until it is, these criticisms remain valid.

Besides, you're in the Genbukan. From what I hear, you guys are better about your training methods for the most part.

The goals might be the same, but i dont agree that the methods are. I'm not going to say you are flat out wrong, but in my own experience the fights I have been into are nothing like the sparring I've done, at all And I assume that a mugging isnt anywhere near a ring-type competition either. I cant use this as proof, or enter it into the debate, so I guess I dont have anything else to say. :D see ya

Isn't talking about "self defence" against muggings kind of silly as most muggers would use some kind of advantage such as weapons and/or multiple attackers? I fail to see how standard bujinkan training will suddenly work its magic under such conditions.

Karl Popper would be proud, Virus.

Originally his last name wasn't Popper, he earnt that nickname on account of how much exctacy he took at dance parties.

iam not sure where every one seems to be getting the idea that people don’t cross train if they train at the bujinkan , or the assumption that if your training bujinkan that you would never have combat experience .

I don’t train any more I really have just lost interest/or have gotten to old to care. but when I did I don think there was one person in our class that didn’t cross train other martial arts, or do some type of sport fighting .all but one out of may 30 had black belts in some thing else several have multiple . one was a corrections officer <and had plenty experience > 3 were in military and served active in the first Iraq thing . one was an ass hole and got in bar fights continuously .one was a kikboxer <actively while training with us > another was a college wrestler several had to fight all the time coming from ghetto community .

most of the shihan have multiple high ranks in other arts .. along with sport fighting .

darone navone is one that comes to mind .

iam sure that you all have experience with different schools and know that no matter what association or "style" have good and bad and have different purposes for being .

effectiveness has to be seen with in its frame work .... it can be with in a realm of probability or possibility . don’t you think its probably silly to say... here’s an example ... lets say you have 130 pound guy who trains all the time and you have 220 guy that trains all the time . 220 guy beats the snot out of 130 pound guy in the ring . do you say that 130 pound guys training sucks ? now that would be silly


how about a live sword fight between 130 pound guy and 220 pound guy .. only 220 doesn’t get a sword and there no ring . equally silly .

remeber back before ufc and there was the Gracie challenge .. <last I remember seeing anything about it they were undefeated ,years and years ago > people would go fight them and be totally unprepared and they would be matched to lose . word was then .. oh man these bjj guys are unbeatable no striker can even come close .. don’t believe it go down there and try it . well after ufc and people got an understanding of what the rules were and were training properly<physically as well as technique> strikers were pulling wins too and ground and pound was a some thing you would hear often .

when i was training with them one thing that was said oftin was "what ever works .. if it gets you home safe then it works " i never ever got the feeling that the sentiment was .. my kungfus better then your kungfu . which seems to be wah tthis thread is about :(

Originally his last name wasn't Popper, he earnt that nickname on account of how much exctacy he took at dance parties.

No, it's what happened when the poker got him.

http://www.labiblioteca.edu.ar/Ilustraciones/2y3/Wittgenstein-Popper.jpg

Isn't talking about "self defence" against muggings kind of silly as most muggers would use some kind of advantage such as weapons and/or multiple attackers? I fail to see how standard bujinkan training will suddenly work its magic under such conditions.

Its mighty sad if you never trained knife or mutiple opponent drills/sparring in the Booj. I contribute most of my (little) skill of both from it. What exactly DID you do in the Bujinkan? And if it was so god damn shitty, why the **** didnt you leave earlier? The more you talk, the more I doubt half of what comes out of your mouth.

On another note, this "unfair advantage" is exactly what I am talking about, and exactly what was jammed into my head my entire time training in ninpo. Nobody wants to attack someone when **** is equal....

Meanwhile in my Muay Thai days the point was to have an even as possible match. Real life isnt so nice, and that really sucks you never trained for those things, and are now apparently ignoring them completley. I hope that you never have to deal with such crime in the future. While I might not be uber deadly and can disarm knife wielding drug addicts, its better than "isnt talking about self defense against muggers... silly?". What the **** else would you need self defense for???!

I did do multiple attacker and knife drills and in hindsight they were a joke.

Seemed fine to me, but if you say they were in your dojo, i believe you.

In most TMA the knife defense are jokes period.

Multiple attacks senarios can help but again it needs to be properly done aka stress training in 2 or 3 guys really trying to hit you hard or to imobilse you...then it becomes a matter of being able to FLEE from the scene.

Mighty move where you are still standing while all the agressors are on the floor helpless are dangerous as they give you false confidense..

They aren't just a joke at my former dojo, they were a joke in all of the places I trained, all the seminars, all the training vids, vids of taikais and daikomosais, all the internet clips as well. Most former BBT students here will probably tell you they have seen the same thing too.

The flaw with bujinkan knife defences is that they are performed from a big lunge stab, in which the arm is left out for you to do your "technique" and then there is full compliance with whatever you do. This is the case with almost all traditional knife defence technqiues from aikido, jujitsu ect. Now I'm sure you will say "We don't train like that! We do full contact, full resistance knife defence!" and maybe you really are, if so, I'm happy that you have some some t3h r34l buj1nk4n.

As for the multiple attacker technqies, I'm sorry but the stuff I did and the stuff I have seen on video (Hatsumi included) is a bigger disaster than if the piolet of the Hindenburg and the Captian of the Titanic got together to fly a commercial aircraft and thought "Let's just have a couple of drinks to revive us from last night's LSD session eh?"

If you can find video footage of either knife defence or multiple attacker drills that don't suck, you will earn the most coveted and esteemed position on bullshido.net, the person that found a bujinkan clip that didn't suck. That should be a tag to go along with "BJJ Black Belt" as it scientificly proven to be harder to get.

They aren't just a joke at my former dojo, they were a joke in all of the places I trained, all the seminars, all the training vids, vids of taikais and daikomosais, all the internet clips as well. Most former BBT students here will probably tell you they have seen the same thing too.

The flaw with bujinkan knife defences is that they are performed from a big lunge stab, in which the arm is left out for you to do your "technique" and then there is full compliance with whatever you do. This is the case with almost all traditional knife defence technqiues from aikido, jujitsu ect. Now I'm sure you will say "We don't train like that! We do full contact, full resistance knife defence!" and maybe you really are, if so, I'm happy that you have some some t3h r34l buj1nk4n.

As for the multiple attacker technqies, I'm sorry but the stuff I did and the stuff I have seen on video (Hatsumi included) is a bigger disaster than if the piolet of the Hindenburg and the Captian of the Titanic got together to fly a commercial aircraft and thought "Let's just have a couple of drinks to revive us from last night's LSD session eh?"

If you can find video footage of either knife defence or multiple attacker drills that don't suck, you will earn the most coveted and esteemed position on bullshido.net, the person that found a bujinkan clip that didn't suck. That should be a tag to go along with "BJJ Black Belt" as it scientificly proven to be harder to get.

Greetings,
I thought I'd finally join the party. I'm by no means an authority on the art of Budo Ninpo Taijutsu (I'm a mere 6th Kyu), I have 2 years experience in full-contact Wu Shu Kwan (Chinese Kickboxing, going for my black belt early next year) and I'm newbie to Brazilian Ju-Jitsu (Just started, and loving it !), and I have a year of Judo under my belt.

I will contribute my interpretation and two cents either way. I think it's unfair to make blanket statements and sweeping generalizations against the Bujinkan as a whole (I'm sure this has been pointed out multiple times), since my opinion is that everything is situational, both in real life senarios and in training methods and it really does depend on the dojo/instructor itself.

I will unreservedly admit that a lot of dojos (from what I've seen and experienced) do indeed incorporate unrealistic elements and ideology into their training, but that by no means that the other Bujinkan dojo across the street follows the same system, and yields the same outcome of results (even though it's understandable for outsiders to assume this).

Just to share a little experience with you gentlemen, I recently started training on Sundays one-on-one with an experienced Bujinkan member, who is also from the UK. He hasn't trained for a long time due to other commitments, such as work and his wife giving birth to their second child, etc. But he was nice enough to train with me at his house.

I will say that training with him was a real eye opener for me in regards to Bujinkan training and it's effectiveness. He made it a point not to "LARP" as you call it (somebody please explain what this means). He placed a strong emphasis on putting realism, resistance (when possible) and commitment into the technique, even if it meant hurting each other slightly (obviously there was some restraint and common decency ).

The first thing he said to me was "Show me what you've got, hit me", so I threw a Bujinkan one step walking punch (what you would call the "lunge" punch). He gracefully avoided it, and then said "Good, now hit me again, this time don't hold back and throw a jab or cross".

I did, I threw a right cross, full on. Again he side stepped it, and before I knew what was what, I was on the floor, locked up in pain, having a variety of painful techniques applied to me simultaneously. This scenario followed suit all day long. My point being is that I wasn't robotically offering myself for him to apply a technique, in his own sweet time, I was somewhat "sparring" with him, with random attacks, semi-full contact to full-contact. I was throwing un-scripted attacks at him, even at times when he wasn't expecting them.

What I noticed is that, his footwork, angling and timing was so good, that I didn't have time to "resist" or "counter" because before I knew what was what, I'd lost my balance and wasn't in a position to apply all the negative traits which "supposedly" Taijutsu doesn't cater to. Even when I didn't lose my balance, he was already in the superior position. Bear in mind that this is somebody who has NEVER spared before in the Bujinkan. I really do feel though, that a lot of basic/advanced Taijutsu gets overlooked. Pain is an excellent motivator, and when somebody applies a pressure point manipulation correctly and effectively and uses their limbs strategically , with the concept of "one move-two or three objectives" then regardless of who you are (obviously there are exceptions) you're not necessarily going to be in a position to counter that "LARPING technique".



I will point out that I'm an advocate of sparring, I spar full-contact every class in my Wu Shu Kwan training, and I "roll" 3 times a week in BJJ class. We even incorporate sparring in my Ninjutsu classes, granted it's not full contact, but bruises,nose bleeds and black eyes are no stranger to the Randori :)

Greetings,
I thought I'd finally join the party. I'm by no means an authority on the art of Budo Ninpo Taijutsu (I'm a mere 6th Kyu), I have 2 years experience in full-contact Wu Shu Kwan (Chinese Kickboxing, going for my black belt early next year) and I'm newbie to Brazilian Ju-Jitsu (Just started, and loving it !), and I have a year of Judo under my belt.

I will contribute my interpretation and two cents either way. I think it's unfair to make blanket statements and sweeping generalizations against the Bujinkan as a whole (I'm sure this has been pointed out multiple times), since my opinion is that everything is situational, both in real life senarios and in training methods and it really does depend on the dojo/instructor itself.

I will unreservedly admit that a lot of dojos (from what I've seen and experienced) do indeed incorporate unrealistic elements and ideology into their training, but that by no means that the other Bujinkan dojo across the street follows the same system, and yields the same outcome of results (even though it's understandable for outsiders to assume this).

Just to share a little experience with you gentlemen, I recently started training on Sundays one-on-one with an experienced Bujinkan member, who is also from the UK. He hasn't trained for a long time due to other commitments, such as work and his wife giving birth to their second child, etc. But he was nice enough to train with me at his house.

I will say that training with him was a real eye opener for me in regards to Bujinkan training and it's effectiveness. He made it a point not to "LARP" as you call it (somebody please explain what this means). He placed a strong emphasis on putting realism, resistance (when possible) and commitment into the technique, even if it meant hurting each other slightly (obviously there was some restraint and common decency ).

The first thing he said to me was "Show me what you've got, hit me", so I threw a Bujinkan one step walking punch (what you would call the "lunge" punch). He gracefully avoided it, and then said "Good, now hit me again, this time don't hold back and throw a jab or cross".

I did, I threw a right cross, full on. Again he side stepped it, and before I knew what was what, I was on the floor, locked up in pain, having a variety of painful techniques applied to me simultaneously. This scenario followed suit all day long. My point being is that I wasn't robotically offering myself for him to apply a technique, in his own sweet time, I was somewhat "sparring" with him, with random attacks, semi-full contact to full-contact. I was throwing un-scripted attacks at him, even at times when he wasn't expecting them.

What I noticed is that, his footwork, angling and timing was so good, that I didn't have time to "resist" or "counter" because before I knew what was what, I'd lost my balance and wasn't in a position to apply all the negative traits which "supposedly" Taijutsu doesn't cater to. Even when I didn't lose my balance, he was already in the superior position. Bear in mind that this is somebody who has NEVER spared before in the Bujinkan. I really do feel though, that a lot of basic/advanced Taijutsu gets overlooked. Pain is an excellent motivator, and when somebody applies a pressure point manipulation correctly and effectively and uses their limbs strategically , with the concept of "one move-two or three objectives" then regardless of who you are (obviously there are exceptions) you're not necessarily going to be in a position to counter that "LARPING technique".



I will point out that I'm an advocate of sparring, I spar full-contact every class in my Wu Shu Kwan training, and I "roll" 3 times a week in BJJ class. We even incorporate sparring in my Ninjutsu classes, granted it's not full contact, but bruises,nose bleeds and black eyes are no stranger to the Randori :)

Its a MAP ninjer!!!! ALERT! NINJER!!!!!!


He isthe one that went to a BJJ dojo and was disapointed he had to fight clean. The deadly BJK shikan ken!

Do the world a favor quit the BJK or kill yourself. I prefer the latter.

Its a MAP ninjer!!!! ALERT! NINJER!!!!!!


He isthe one that went to a BJJ dojo and was disapointed he had to fight clean. The deadly BJK shikan ken!
.

If you played American football and then decided to take up Rugby, would you instantly adapt to the new rules and elements easily ? How would you deal without all the ***** helmets and pads ?


Or how would you deal with the change from Lacross to Irish Hurling ?, since they have the ability to strike the opponent on the other team with their hurling stick Just an analogy.