Well, in my opinion if you took the bujinkan's grappling system and decided to keep the good and throw out the bad, then you would probably be doing something identical to judo, becuase that's what Kano already did with his jujitsu ryu.

But a judo coach has already spent many years learning these in a high pressure, alive enviorment and would know way more about the application of these technques than a bujinkan guy who spent his years dealing with dead patterns.


except we would be throwing people on thier necks instead of thier backs

except we would be throwing people on thier necks instead of thier backs

But the delivery system remains the same.

is the kuzushi (sp?) and the throwing in judo the same? i mean the way in which you dont tie yourself up sort of thing.

Actually there are differences. You are correct there. I was taught not to grab the opponent in BBT but I doubt such a method stands up well in an alive situation. Judo doesn't use strikes for kuzushi and but is more explosive in it's throws.

yeh it seems that way from videos of judo i have watched.

except we would be throwing people on thier necks instead of thier backs

Once again, I'd recommend *doing* judo before talking.

You see, if one does not have proper ukemi, one ends up on his neck. It is not through the benevolence of my partner that I end on my back, but because I know when he fits in for a seoi nage I had better prepare to take a hard fall or wind up injured.

Once again, I'd recommend *doing* judo before talking.

You see, if one does not have proper ukemi, one ends up on his neck. It is not through the benevolence of my partner that I end on my back, but because I know when he fits in for a seoi nage I had better prepare to take a hard fall or wind up injured.

i never said otherwise, BUT do they try and make the ukemi hard for you in judo ?
isnt the point of judo too get the person on the back? ( i know im going too get flamed for this but please elaborate).

and also , i was asking a question not telling him how it is.

Actually there are differences. You are correct there. I was taught not to grab the opponent in BBT .
which makes it closer to Grecco in that regard or no gi judo.

. Judo doesn't use strikes for kuzushi

Then you are learning Judo wrong. Judo uses strikes. Striking with your hip is still a strike.

i never said otherwise, BUT do they try and make the ukemi hard for you in judo ?
isnt the point of judo too get the person on the back? ( i know im going too get flamed for this but please elaborate).

and also , i was asking a question not telling him how it is.

The competition is about making them land on their back yes, but I dont try to make them land on their back. Instead I try to throw them as hard as possible so they can't take good ukemi. The reason being if they hit the mat so hard they can't continue, well I win. Plus i'm usually doing a sacrifice throw, so I'm trying to land on their chest with as much weight as I can possibly get. It makes it easier to get the tap.

We are all practicing a false reality. The only difference is where and to what degree you make your comprimises. You can specialize in something and get beat by someone who does something outside of the box. Or you can have a broad focus (ie xkan) but get beat by someone who specializes in one thing. I feel its up to the person to decide which way he likes best.

i agree with siphus on that last point, there is no way we can eliminate all weaknesses, from a bujinkan point of view i think we try and cover all bases so as too stand a chance at whatever is thrown at us.

We are all practicing a false reality. The only difference is where and to what degree you make your comprimises. You can specialize in something and get beat by someone who does something outside of the box. Or you can have a broad focus (ie xkan) but get beat by someone who specializes in one thing. I feel its up to the person to decide which way he likes best.


I almost liked you up until this post. It's precisely this farcical bs that gives Ninjas a bad name on this board. "practicing a false reality"? Um, what? Are you now going to flow effortlessly into a butterfly dreaming he's a man?

And the circular logic of the next two sentences would make Ashida Kim proud. A specialist can be beat by a generalist. A generalist can be beat by a specialist. Okay, so what exactly is your point? Is it better to be a generalist or a specialist? Or does it matter? Take a position and make an arguement dammit! :eusa_wall

If we're going to open up the who pwns whom arguement, specialists vs. generalists, the answer is: Neither. It's about the individual, the quality of their training and the environment of the encounter.

I almost liked you up until this post. It's precisely this farcical bs that gives Ninjas a bad name on this board. "practicing a false reality"? Um, what? Are you now going to flow effortlessly into a butterfly dreaming he's a man?

Yeah, practicing a false reality. You read it right. When you are in the dojo, or the gym, or whatever, do you REALLY think what you are doing is fighting? No. There is no substitute for an actual fight. No matter what kind of training you are doing, whether its ninpo, bjj, silat, or boxing you are just faking reality. There is no substitute for a mugging, an assault, or hell even a match in front of hundreds of people. So, again, when you are training, all you are doing is practicing an abstraction.



And the circular logic of the next two sentences would make Ashida Kim proud. A specialist can be beat by a generalist. A generalist can be beat by a specialist. Okay, so what exactly is your point? Is it better to be a generalist or a specialist? Or does it matter? Take a position and make an arguement dammit! :eusa_wall

If we're going to open up the who pwns whom arguement, specialists vs. generalists, the answer is: Neither. It's about the individual, the quality of their training and the environment of the encounter.

No ****, what do you think I was trying to say? If there was a right answer to that question, everyone would be doing it :violent1: There doesnt need to be a who owned who argument, you just owned yourself.

Yeah I kinda disagree with ya there about faking reality..

I don't think anyone is going to try and replicate reality. that'd be a fake reality, no? Or do you mean, you say to someone if you stab me and take my wallet i'll pay you $10,000.. so you get someone really trying to stab you for the sake of training.. it IS training remember. training that uses ways in which its safe to TRAIN FOR situations that may happen in reality.

that reality could be in a mma ring, or a boxing ring or that dreaded dark alley, where an unarmed opponent will stand there, take up a stance, wait a second, throw a bujinkan lunge punch tm and leave their arm hanging out there to be manipulated, like many people train for.

Grant.

The problem with the bujinkan is not that they don't specialise, the problem is that no matter what they are training they use dead drills and patterns.