I don't get it. Why waste your money? Why not go somewhere else where the physical skills match the philosophy?

I'm recognizing that as being the case with SOME examples, not all of them. It happens that I respect the abilities of most of the instructors I train with, and have a lot to learn from them. There also aren't many systems that cover the breadth of weapons, formally or otherwise, that the Bujinkan does, and this is a huge factor in appreciating some of the differences in training.

Furthermore, my understanding as to what the essence of budo taijutsu is provides a very simple and flexible framework for studying martial arts in general, which is one of those intangible things but it emerges through diversified practice. For me it's something of a unifiying thread rather than specifying a way of doing things. This is why I say there is "taijutsu" to good boxing and BJJ, and maybe more Bujinkan people should consider looking at the way these arts are trained, just like Gyokko ryu and Shinden Fudo ryu are very different but have common threads and their own interesting contributions.

Man, I wanna be a ninja.

How cool would that look on your resume?

Spunky,

What BTT school do you train at? Link?

I'm asking this with all sincereity; maybe it will give me a good reference point if I can see the rare good ninja school.

EDIT: Sorry, I'm an idiot. Just saw your profile.


Spunky, please explain this clip from your gym: http://www.mizunagaredojo.com/What%20is%20Bujinkan%20Streaming%20High.wmv

Please tell me that's not the resistant BTT you've been talking up. Also, the claim of "a millenium of unbroken lineage" is extremely dubios, at best.

Spunky,

What BTT school do you train at? Link?

I'm asking this with all sincereity; maybe it will give me a good reference point if I can see the rare good ninja school.

EDIT: Sorry, I'm an idiot. Just saw your profile.


Spunky, please explain this clip from your gym: http://www.mizunagaredojo.c om/Wha...ng%20High. wmv

Please tell me that's not the resistant BTT you've been talking up. Also, the claim of "a millenium of unbroken lineage" is extremely dubios, at best.

I apologize for a long-winded post:

My teacher tries to hit on both the harder and softer sides of things, which is always a difficult approach. The clip I posted a page ago is more representative of an "unscripted" medium training intensity, while this little montage certainly reflects the light side. I'm one of the two green belts getting tangled together, those were from a long time ago when I was only a couple months into training and had embaressingly terrible attacks which I've tightened up quite a bit now and am continually working on and pointing out to fellow students. The guy shooting the video asked for some more "flashy looking" stuff, and I would rather just have candid training videos up for public consumption than this stuff... but oh well..

There are two instructors demonstrating here. Ethan Capers is my main teacher, he's the bald one with two different ukes, and the other is Thom Peterson who started his own dojo a while ago. Ethan has been doing martial arts most of his life and worked security for the Rogue in L.A. and the Quest here in Minneapolis. He's also done skiptrace and bodyguard work. Because of his line of work, his training tends to be more straightforward than most. He can have a bit of an attitude but is a good guy and is always willing to back up what he says.

Thom is a comedian and magician, and not suprisingly has a much softer approach to training though he is still a clever bastard and will get you in some suprisingly painful positions and offers some great insights. I've only met his students a few times, and based on those encounters I'm concerned that many of them would break down under realistic pressure. One of the only times I've seen him in a truly free-response situation (which was a long time ago and he's grown a lot since then) he couldn't deal with it well at all. And I get that from the students who've only trained under him, unfortunately. I hesitate saying this all because I consider these people my friends, but these differences in ideology is partly why we are no longer a single dojo. I still think both perspectives are useful.

As for the content, most of it is a Gyokko ryu kata called koku, which means something like "empty space," and as I understand is about drawing specific attacks and sort of sucking them into a space you create. Um... it kind of comes down to slipping an opponent's attacks in a way that gradually erodes his balance. The specific attacks don't really matter, but another aspect of the kata (I think) is being able to set up the distancing to illicit particular attacks. I like to practice it by having the uke just do whatever feels is his best option and try to get it as close as possible. This is hard, it usually turns into uke "agreeing to make the pre-written decision," so they might pause like they are making it up on the fly but they are really just going through the motions with some acting... this is how it appears in these, which is why the attacks are so half-assed... tsk tsk tsk!

So your response to the fact that the clips your school uses to present itself to the world is rife with the overly-compliant and unrealistic training methods that you have criticized in other schools and claimed your school avoids is ...

those clips don't represent your school?


One of the only times I've seen him in a truly free-response situation ...

So ...

1.) It's rare to see the instructor actually attempt to apply (outside of one-step compliant settings) the techniques he's been telling you work.

2.) He can't actually get the techniques to work outside of a compliant partner, despite his lengthy theorizing as to why they are effective.

And I assume this is someone who the Bujinkan has given instructor-level ranking.

I'm honestly not trying to pick a fight, but this begs two questions ...

Why aren't you deeply concerned about geting a lot more practice in "free-response" situations?

Why haven't you run screaming from the Bujinkan?


I like to practice it by having the uke just do whatever feels is his best option and try to get it as close as possible. This is hard, it usually turns into uke "agreeing to make the pre-written decision," so they might pause like they are making it up on the fly but they are really just going through the motions with some acting ...

Even better: you could have the uke attack with what whatever techniques he knows at the same time without any distinction between uke and attacker. In fact, you could even "tap out" to signify a "winner" of the "fight". That might even weed out techniques that don't actually work. Why bother with the compliant training and the endless theorizing?


This thread isn't going well for the ninjas.

EDIT: Your instructor trained with Frank Dux. That's a funny factoid. You think most people would just quietly leave that off their instructor credentials.

EDIT: Rather than repeat myself again and post another essay :) I've PM'd most of this post directly to TakeAnother... I would think my previous comments already address his last post here, unless I totally miscommunicated the whole thing :BangHead:


Even better: you could have the uke attack with what whatever techniques he knows at the same time without any distinction between uke and attacker. In fact, you could even "tap out" to signify a "winner" of the "fight". That might even weed out techniques that don't actually work. Why bother with the compliant training and the endless theorizing?

Here's the general process I like to take with partnered kata... begin by learning the general form according to whover's guidelines you're going by (since there is really no concrete "written form" for anything) by going through it slowly and softly. As you start to understand the basic mechanics and positioning for whatever approach you are taking, ite (the "attacker") progressively puts in a sort of static resistance so that you must have the form down well. After this, ite is allowed to throw counter attacks if uke leaves openings. Eventually, ite should begin by throwing whatever attack he feels is best (without specifying a kata beforehand) and uke should try to set up the rest of it or at least apply the ideas. Ite is allowed to counter and resist however he wishes, and it keeps going until someone taps or retreats. This is a cyclical process, because by bringing life into the kata you can see more the next time you go through slowly. There is interesting but intangible stuff in these you kinda have to experience.

This is not intended as a replacement for sparring. Different things.

Really it is the training methods that I question. Plus the fact some of the BBT were trying to say training with wifey is the same as fighting an unknown fighter in a ring. 1.I am not in the Bushikan Budo taijutsu
2.I am in the Genbukan Ninpou Bugei 3.The example with my wife or any women
or anyone who is elderly or weak for that matter was to show that if someone is stroner resists it does not matter because correct technique,correct timing,correct distancing,correct space,correct footwork have all been applied.I also would like
to say just because something to you looks unpractical doesn't mean it is example:I watched a Shotokan kata and I found it to be dumb that they kept putting there hand to the ground after the teacher said "The reason you put your hand down is to pick up rocks to throw at your opponent"With my comment on the elderly,and weak How does one who is outweighted,slower,weaker,smaller
beat an opponent?If you were 70yrs old and were confronted in a streetfight how would you beat someone who outweighted you(let say by 200lb)was an experienced fighter and moved faster?

If you were 70yrs old and were confronted in a streetfight how would you beat someone who outweighted you(let say by 200lb)was an experienced fighter and moved faster?

You wouldn't. A 70 year old facing a faster experienced fighter who outweighed them by 200 lbs would lose in unarmed combat unless something else intervened, such as his opponent being hit by a car. To believe otherwise is as much a mark of a fantasist as believing kata are "practical".

I'm with hedge here, go eat under the stairs with the goths and band kids.

Dammit, I was in the band. And I'll have you know that we were even bigger dorks than the goths.

Ninjas got nothin' on us, though.

You wouldn't. A 70 year old facing a faster experienced fighter who outweighed them by 200 lbs would lose in unarmed combat unless something else intervened, such as his opponent being hit by a car. To believe otherwise is as much a mark of a fantasist as believing kata are "practical". and you study Judo?

1.I am not in the Bushikan Budo taijutsu
2.I am in the Genbukan Ninpou Bugei 3.The example with my wife or any women
or anyone who is elderly or weak for that matter was to show that if someone is stroner resists it does not matter because correct technique,correct timing,correct distancing,correct space,correct footwork have all been applied.I also would like
to say just because something to you looks unpractical doesn't mean it is example:I watched a Shotokan kata and I found it to be dumb that they kept putting there hand to the ground after the teacher said "The reason you put your hand down is to pick up rocks to throw at your opponent"With my comment on the elderly,and weak How does one who is outweighted,slower,weaker,smaller
beat an opponent?If you were 70yrs old and were confronted in a streetfight how would you beat someone who outweighted you(let say by 200lb)was an experienced fighter and moved faster?

Look you have Taijutsu in your style. Just like all kung fu is the same deal with the BBT mistake it doesn't invalidate my argument. GBT trains with wifey and says it is the same as fighting an unknown oppopnent.

Okay make sure you understand me and Rig aren't the same person. You keep mixing the arguments. Again I have only said the training methods are unrealistic never said anything about technique. Now we have called each other on mistakes.


First remember why I enterd this. It was BBT instructors saying that their training is better than MMA training. This is because they believe that MMA is training for a game/sport and BBT trains for real life. I said no . I said MMA, even with rules, is more realistic because you don't know the guy hopping in the ring with you until you get to elite competition (Pride,K-1,UFC, etc). I don't care how hard you go with your partners and wife, they are treated differently then say me.

and you study Judo?

Yes, and I know what it's like to fight an experienced fighter who has (most of) 200 lbs on me, though admittedly a slower one.

Apparently you don't.

The example with my wife or any women
or anyone who is elderly or weak for that matter was to show that if someone is stroner resists it does not matter because correct technique,correct timing,correct distancing,correct space,correct footwork have all been applied.

I can't believe what I'm reading. That's what I might have said when I was 16 years old and had done only JJJ.

Now what I'd say is that you might be able to defeat a huge person *if* the huge person is a moron and attacks in an extremely poor way, but that generally speaking the huge person sits on you and that's all she wrote.

3.The example with my wife or any women
or anyone who is elderly or weak for that matter was to show that if someone is stroner resists it does not matter because correct technique,correct timing,correct distancing,correct space,correct footwork have all been applied.

Never get into a violent confrontation; you will lose.



I also would like
to say just because something to you looks unpractical doesn't mean it is example:I watched a Shotokan kata and I found it to be dumb that they kept putting there hand to the ground after the teacher said "The reason you put your hand down is to pick up rocks to throw at your opponent"

I'd say that's pretty impractical too. A human being honestly shouldn't need to practice a form for bending over and picking up rocks as there is no great technique to itv other than the one you should have mastered at 5.

If something looks impractical, it very likely is.

Clown cars: impractical.

Clown shoes: impractical.

Elephant riding: impractical.

ninjas: impractical.

(hint; I'm implying that ninjitsu is somewhat akin to a circus act)



With my comment on the elderly,and weak How does one who is outweighted,slower,weaker,smaller
beat an opponent?If you were 70yrs old and were confronted in a streetfight how would you beat someone who outweighted you(let say by 200lb)was an experienced fighter and moved faster?

I would not texpect to win anymore than I would expect a 12 year old to win. As it stands while I can and have beaten people who outweigh me by 200lbs- and what witht he fat problem here in the states there are a few million people who out weigh me by 200lbs that I could kill with ease- they are generally not prepared, possibly armed, and very committed attackers intent on getting something from me. I might win with my technique, but I harbor no delusions that I probably will.

On the other hand, I have beaten traditional martial artists with "correct technique,correct timing,correct distancing,correct space,correct footwork" by virtue of the fact that all that correct crap fell apart under the pressure of actually getting hit in the fucking face.and then being taken down and tied up like dough into a pretzel.

Freaking ninjas :rolleyes:

I am sure there are a few 70 year olds that cna beat the crap out of trained fighters hald their age and 100lbs heavier,

They are the same ones that have been doing that ALL THEIR LIVES !!

There are exactly 3 of them in the world, and NONE of them do ninjutsu.

I am sure there are a few 70 year olds that cna beat the crap out of trained fighters hald their age and 100lbs heavier,

They are the same ones that have been doing that ALL THEIR LIVES !!

There are exactly 3 of them in the world, and NONE of them do ninjutsu.


Well, if they did, would you know? Maybe they are ninjas masquerading as masters of other martial arts! :glasses2: