Could you repost this link in full length, or let me know the search parameters you used please?

Cheers

Edit: I spell like a moron....

OK, I'll try again. That link does nothing for me, i.e. it does not show me an abstract from a scientific paper when I click on it, which is what I would expect, seeing as it is from PubMed. Seeing as I would like to read at least the abstract, I would like to know which paper it is; hence, could you please provide a working link?

Ok, Sarcasm mode off.

Cheers

Since this is the Internet it pays to be skeptical of anyone's intentions, but I'll take Chrono at his word for now.

To put this all in perspective:

I haven't always been a Skeptic, nor have I always been pro-science. Being a bored, introspective youth of 15 with above-average intelligence and stuck in a small hick town, I myself started studying the paranormal/supernatural. My mom worked two jobs, and I pretty much raised myself, so I didn't have anyone to call bullshit on my newly forming beliefs. And the fact that I seemed to be smarter than everyone I was around only fed my teenage ego to the point where I started assuming I knew better than everyone else, including Science.

For five solid years and tapering off slowly after that, I absorbed everything I could get my hands on. I had a collection of books which included original texts dating back to the 19th century and spanning topics from just about any paranormal/supernatural/occult philosophy you could imagine. For example, I had an original edition of "The Secret Science Behind Miracles" which detailed how following the religious practices of the Hawaiian Kahunas could (and let me see if I remember this correctly) allow you to connect with a universal superconscious and use it to perform miracles. I had copies of medieval manuscripts on ritual magic, and more contemporary books by Aliester Crowley and Israel Regardie. I read Yeats just because he was a member of the Golden Dawn, and I can still recite the words of the "Wiccan Rede" from memory. Hell, I'm a walking encyclopedia of obscure occult bullshit.

But as I got older (and started to get laid more often too), it became more and more obvious that there was a reason all of this stuff and the people who believed in it existed on the fringes of society: they were fucking fruitcake nujobs, every last one of them. Seriously, go to a spiritual/metaphysics/type convention sometime. You will see the bottom rungs of the social ladder coming together like an oversized support group. It's not hard to draw the conclusion that many people are attracted to the occult because it gives them the illusion that they are somehow special and different (better) than the rest of society that they have difficulty interacting with. Many of these people aren't "misunderstood", their problem is that they're very well understood as kooks, freaks, and geeks who are socially inept.

So as I got older, I grew out of more and more of the bullshit. "Chi" was one of the last bits of bullshit that stuck with me. After all, it's not unreasonable for someone who's not a doctor to assume that there could be something to the electrical energy produced by the body. But that changed when I decided to pay $350 to a Qigong "master" to heal my knee which was hurting from doing jumping kicks in WuShu. The "treatment" involved him putting a poultice of 11 secret herbs and spices (which resembled something between tree bark, and dog ****) on my knee, grunt and groan for a while holding his hands along side my leg, and staying off the knee for two weeks.

Two days into the two week rest period, take a wild guess at which of the three modes of treatment I realized was the only one that caused any positive effect?

That's when I became a Skeptic. It would be several more years before I started Bullshido with a few like-minded companions, but this incident sticks with me as one of the driving factors in my decision to keep this place running despite the headache and expense. And to tell you the truth, I don't think I've ever mentioned it here. We're going on three years now, and this movement to improve standards and root out the bullshit in Martial Arts, despite occasional setbacks, keeps moving forward.

My point in all of this, to you Chrono, is this:

Don't feel bad because circumstance and a lack of guidance conspired to have you believing in nonsense; it happens to the best of us. How you handle coming out from under it is what demonstrates your character and maturity. The Internet is a neutral resource; there's just as much good information as there is complete garbage. But with a little digging, a little introspection, and a little self-honesty, anyone with a reasonable amount of intelligence should be able to come to grips with the difference between reality and fancy.

And don't forget this either: you might think for a while that the world is less colorful, less romantic without a belief in the supernatural. But the more you seek to understand the natural, and start to appreciate what we really have going here, the more you'll realize that a belief in the supernatural is not necessary for the world, universe, and life itself to be adventurous and exciting. This world, and life on it, is more precious to those who realize it's all that we really have.

That was surprisingly touching, Phrost.

Phrost deserves a blow job for this post. Ronin, it´s your turn.

Seriously, great post man.

Phrost deserves a blow job for this post. Ronin, it´s your turn.

Seriously, great post man.


Hey I pos repped him for it, that is as far as I go...without dinner and a movie.

Phrost deserves a blow job for this post. Ronin, it´s your turn.

Seriously, great post man.

You Brazilians are WAY more open minded than we are.

You Brazilians are WAY more open minded than we are.

Hey, I did not volunteer myself, I volunteered Ronin...who is portuguese AND short, two excellent qualities for giving a blowjob.

(OK I´ll stop now)

So as I got older, I grew out of more and more of the bullshit. "Chi" was one of the last bits of bullshit that stuck with me. After all, it's not unreasonable for someone who's not a doctor to assume that there could be something to the electrical energy produced by the body. But that changed when I decided to pay $350 to a Qigong "master" to heal my knee which was hurting from doing jumping kicks in WuShu. The "treatment" involved him putting a poultice of 11 secret herbs and spices (which resembled something between tree bark, and dog ****) on my knee, grunt and groan for a while holding his hands along side my leg, and staying off the knee for two weeks.

Two days into the two week rest period, take a wild guess at which of the three modes of treatment I realized was the only one that caused any positive effect?



so because of one interaction you had with a qigong master (who charged and outrageous amount) you decided that qi, qigong, and chinese herbal medicine was fake?

i'll leave out the qigong because i am not qualified to discuss it, but i am familiar with chinese herbal medicine so i'll inform you that chinese herbal medicine works very well for trauma, strains, and muscle pain. in combination with acupuncture, chinese herbs can improve recovery time and decrease pain.

there was another thread a month ago (that i and another person posted) about a kung fu school in seattle that was charging outrageous fees to the students. in addition, they sold chinese herbs to students at very high prices. when a journalist took the herbs to the dispensary at my school's clinic, my instructors pointed out that the herbs should have cost about $5, not the $50 that was being charged.

the point is that there are frauds everywhere. from your story, it seems like you probably got taken. this sucks, especially considering how much you paid. but to apply your one experience to all chinese herbs is a mistake.

Since this is the Internet it pays to be skeptical of anyone's intentions, but I'll take Chrono at his word for now.

To put this all in perspective:

I haven't always been a Skeptic, nor have I always been pro-science. Being a bored, introspective youth of 15 with above-average intelligence and stuck in a small hick town, I myself started studying the paranormal/supernatural. My mom worked two jobs, and I pretty much raised myself, so I didn't have anyone to call

snip



Phrost:
Sans the above average intelligence, small town and mother with two jobs, my experience is very similar to yours. Down to the herbs'n'dog **** medical treatment.

And that brings me to the fact that I'm still not a supporting member although I meant to be, seriously. I don't have a paypal account and would like to NOT open one. Can I send a check? Point me to more info please. Address...etc.

Tomas

so because of one interaction you had with a qigong master (who charged and outrageous amount) you decided that qi, qigong, and chinese herbal medicine was fake?

i'll leave out the qigong because i am not qualified to discuss it, but i am familiar with chinese herbal medicine so i'll inform you that chinese herbal medicine works very well for trauma, strains, and muscle pain. in combination with acupuncture, chinese herbs can improve recovery time and decrease pain.

there was another thread a month ago (that i and another person posted) about a kung fu school in seattle that was charging outrageous fees to the students. in addition, they sold chinese herbs to students at very high prices. when a journalist took the herbs to the dispensary at my school's clinic, my instructors pointed out that the herbs should have cost about $5, not the $50 that was being charged.

the point is that there are frauds everywhere. from your story, it seems like you probably got taken. this sucks, especially considering how much you paid. but to apply your one experience to all chinese herbs is a mistake.


Whoa, there, hoss. Rein yourself in. All Phrost said is that he is a Skeptic with a capital 'S'. Meaning, you better be able to prove ****, before you talk ****.

I don't believe Phrost ever said that all Chinese herbals are ****, just that he was done believing in the whole 'Chi' thing. We know now that Ginseng, etc. have medicinal value. Because Science has helped prove it.

For those who want to see Chinese herbs in action:

http://www.cvtechnologies.com/coldfx/default.aspx

Read about the chief researcher. Chinese - with two PhD's.

Science - what a concept.

Whoa, there, hoss. Rein yourself in. All Phrost said is that he is a Skeptic with a capital 'S'. Meaning, you better be able to prove ****, before you talk ****.

I don't believe Phrost ever said that all Chinese herbals are ****, just that he was done believing in the whole 'Chi' thing. We know now that Ginseng, etc. have medicinal value. Because Science has helped prove it.

For those who want to see Chinese herbs in action:

http://www.cvtechnologies.com/coldfx/default.aspx

Read about the chief researcher. Chinese - with two PhD's.

Science - what a concept.


sorry. didn't realize that i was in need of reining. will decrease consumption of earl grey tea.

Phrost:
Sans the above average intelligence, small town and mother with two jobs, my experience is very similar to yours. Down to the herbs'n'dog **** medical treatment.

And that brings me to the fact that I'm still not a supporting member although I meant to be, seriously. I don't have a paypal account and would like to NOT open one. Can I send a check? Point me to more info please. Address...etc.

Tomas

Really, I'm trying to get away from the whole taking checks/alternate payment way of doing things. It screwed me up really bad on the last T-shirt go-round.

But here's the address anyway:

Bullshido.com
107 SE HWY 291 #216
Lee's Summit MO, 64063

Are you familiar with http://nccam.nih.gov/?
The outlook of alternative chinese medicine is not as bright as you may believe it is. There are only few aspects of chinese traditional medicine that seems to work. Examples: accupuncture on some conditions http://nccam.nih.gov/health/acupuncture/acu-osteo.htm but not other, and some herbal preparations (milk thistle for liver dissease). Don't fool yourself. CTM is riddled with quacks and charlatans.

watch this:
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/alerts/actra-rx/actra-rx.htm
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/alerts/silver/index.htm
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/backgrounds/energymed.htm

I'm not saying it's all crap, that's why the NCCAM is there, and if you dig you'll find successfull examples of TCM based drugs and treatments.

The only way to clean the field up from charlatans is to involve science, and frankly speaking, the science in TCM is only taking it's first babysteps.

Tomas


so because of one interaction you had with a qigong master (who charged and outrageous amount) you decided that qi, qigong, and chinese herbal medicine was fake?

i'll leave out the qigong because i am not qualified to discuss it, but i am familiar with chinese herbal medicine so i'll inform you that chinese herbal medicine works very well for trauma, strains, and muscle pain. in combination with acupuncture, chinese herbs can improve recovery time and decrease pain.

there was another thread a month ago (that i and another person posted) about a kung fu school in seattle that was charging outrageous fees to the students. in addition, they sold chinese herbs to students at very high prices. when a journalist took the herbs to the dispensary at my school's clinic, my instructors pointed out that the herbs should have cost about $5, not the $50 that was being charged.

the point is that there are frauds everywhere. from your story, it seems like you probably got taken. this sucks, especially considering how much you paid. but to apply your one experience to all chinese herbs is a mistake.

so because of one interaction you had with a qigong master (who charged and outrageous amount) you decided that qi, qigong, and chinese herbal medicine was fake?

i'll leave out the qigong because i am not qualified to discuss it, but i am familiar with chinese herbal medicine so i'll inform you that chinese herbal medicine works very well for trauma, strains, and muscle pain. in combination with acupuncture, chinese herbs can improve recovery time and decrease pain.

there was another thread a month ago (that i and another person posted) about a kung fu school in seattle that was charging outrageous fees to the students. in addition, they sold chinese herbs to students at very high prices. when a journalist took the herbs to the dispensary at my school's clinic, my instructors pointed out that the herbs should have cost about $5, not the $50 that was being charged.

the point is that there are frauds everywhere. from your story, it seems like you probably got taken. this sucks, especially considering how much you paid. but to apply your one experience to all chinese herbs is a mistake.

I didn't say anything about the herbs other than the fact that they looked like dog ****. But I'd like you to explain to me how cartalige damaged by regularly running 12+ miles with a 45lb rucksack in the Army can be repaired by smearing herbs and spices on the outside of my knee.

Regardless, Qigong and herbal medicine are two different bridges to burn. Some aspects of Traditional Chinese Medicine are good, while some are stupid. Trying to cure herpes using powdered yak penis is just stupid. Ephedra, Ginseng, Green Tea etc, however, all have proven effects and/or benefits if used correctly.

But smearing them on someone's leg and then grunting like a constipated Yoda trying to raise an X-wing out of the swamp, however, is Bullshit.

I'm not the type to throw the baby out with the bathwater, except on the occasions that the baby is a festering pile of bullshit.

I'm not the type to throw the baby out with the bathwater, except on the occasions that the baby is a festering pile of bullshit.

You could just melt it like good ol Sin The.

I'm snatching up this quote before anyone else does......