That you use the exceptions as validation is sad.

But that's what most people make their assumptions on here at Bullshido as well. Just because it's not used in a ring where there are strict rules and you're fighting against someone who's of your equal weight, wearing at least some protective gear, people automatically assume it's worthless. I'm not saying full contact training is wrong, far from it, I'm just saying it's not the catch-all for proving an art's effectiveness.

Where are all the ninja? There were a token 2, i think, that won their fights by throwing haymakers and being just tough guys, not with ninjitsu.

Both were with American Ninjutsu under Bussey, which is not really ninjutsu at all.

But that's what most people make their assumptions on here at Bullshido as well. Just because it's not used in a ring where there are strict rules and you're fighting against someone who's of your equal weight, wearing at least some protective gear, people automatically assume it's worthless. I'm not saying full contact training is wrong, far from it, I'm just saying it's not the catch-all for proving an art's effectiveness.
I've never had to use exceptions to show the effectiveness of bjj. I can do that anytime someone walks into my school (frequent). My school is not exceptional. In fact considering our highest ranking two guys are brown belts, that the school isn't very big and only has one or two solid mma guys it is probably the opposite. Nonetheless, most of our guys can handle themselves. With bjj. Not inate toughness.

But that's what most people make their assumptions on here at Bullshido as well. Just because it's not used in a ring where there are strict rules and you're fighting against someone who's of your equal weight, wearing at least some protective gear, people automatically assume it's worthless. I'm not saying full contact training is wrong, far from it, I'm just saying it's not the catch-all for proving an art's effectiveness.

And what, pray tell, is the catch-all?
Fake records from nonexistant feudal japan ninjitsu heroes?

Both were with American Ninjutsu under Bussey, which is not really ninjutsu at all.

Well then, that makes ZERO ninja's that have shown effectiveness in NHB events.

Nonetheless, most of our guys can handle themselves. With bjj. Not inate toughness.

In a controlled school environment. How much striking do you typically do during the free movement phase? Can you strike on the ground at all there, or is it just straight grappling? Do you always do gi or sometimes no-gi? Any one of these can be a factor. I'm not saying many of the guys in your school cannot fight effectively, but how many of them have gotten a good solid punch to the jaw or a knee to the ribs? The same goes with the Booj, there are many who can fight well in those conditions but have not taken that many punches in their life. If either someone from my school or your school trains appropriately enough, however, they'll learn to take those punches and knees and keep their cool and be better fighters because of it.

Well then, that makes ZERO ninja's that have shown effectiveness in NHB events.

I've already shown you that that's wrong as well.

http://www.columbusninjutsuclub.com/instructors.html

Dan Buckley is an EFC Lightweight Champion who fought in one of the same tournaments as Primo/Acekicken did a little over a year ago. So that's at least one ninja who has. :eusa_danc

Please, tell us the secret!
What is the proof of total teh deadly!!!

Please, tell us the secret!
What is the proof of total teh deadly!!!

I've never in any of my convos said ninjutsu is th3 d34dly, I've just said it is effective if you train properly in it. Any martial art can be effective if you train to be effective, but if you don't it doesn't matter what you take, you're going to get your ass kicked.

In a controlled school environment. That's not what I said, is it?
Considering I train with a bunch of rowdies, it certainly isn't the case.

I've just said it is effective if you train properly in it.Yes or no: Most ninjas do this.

That's not what I said, is it?
Considering I train with a bunch of rowdies, it certainly isn't the case.

So every training session is a virtual free-for-all similar to a rugby scrum?

So, when did this post become a "who can kick who's ass" discussion. I'm pretty sure this started as a discussion which partially touched on the value training in a crawl, walk, run manner.

It became one when the overwhelming presense of shitty fighters in ninjitsu was defended by a random few who can use it decently, while also trying to devaluating other arts that produce a high volume of good fighters by saying "they have bad fighters too".

I'm just saying it's not the catch-all for proving an art's effectiveness.

Then, what is?

Yes or no: Most ninjas do this.

I've only seen about three schools from the Bujinkan, but out of those three, I'd say two of them teach effectively. Every school in the Booj is different as each instructor has his/her own take on what's important and what's not. The third school had a head instructor who was deeply into the esoteric side of the martial arts, so his students tended to be a lot more cerebral and did not do as much practical exercise. The other school I've seen from mine is run by a godan who's been a cop for many years, and spent about half his career in SWAT. He mostly focuses on self-defense using ninjutsu, and they go at it pretty hard for the most part. Those are the only schools I've seen, but from what I've seen, yes, for the most part, a good Bujinkan instructor will teach someone how to fight effectively.