So what do people have to say about people like Paul Vunak that use aliveness and resistance training methods? I notice that he's in the list of "bullshidos greatest martial artists ever". When I watch his clips it seems like he knows what he's talking about. On the other hand, some of his stuff seems kinda flashy or martial arts movieish. Apparently from checking his history JKD is only part of his influence... the rest lying in FMA's and groundfighting. I know nothing about JKD other then it's Bruce Lees brain child that has more then likely gone awry.

Bruce Lee > Daniel Inosanto > Paul Vunak

JKD is such an ambiguous term. It's no wonder it's so confusing for people. The thing aobut JKD is it isn't a style (some JF JKD person is going to flame me). It's an idea about how to train martial arts. Bruce said you should learn as much as you can, from as many different people as you can, and you will find what works for you.

For instance to say "JKD is part of his influence" doesn't make sense to me because JKD is a catch-all term for training in many different arts, and then seeing how you can make them fit together. In fact, I'm pretty sure Vunak dropped the term JKD for that very reason.

As for movieish. I haven't seena nything of Vunak being movieish, usually he's talking about elbows/knees/headbutts.

and biting

JKD is such an ambiguous term. It's no wonder it's so confusing for people. The thing aobut JKD is it isn't a style (some JF JKD person is going to flame me). It's an idea about how to train martial arts. Bruce said you should learn as much as you can, from as many different people as you can, and you will find what works for you.

For instance to say "JKD is part of his influence" doesn't make sense to me because JKD is a catch-all term for training in many different arts, and then seeing how you can make them fit together. In fact, I'm pretty sure Vunak dropped the term JKD for that very reason.

As for movieish. I haven't seena nything of Vunak being movieish, usually he's talking about elbows/knees/headbutts.
Basically, it's like "if it works, its JKD tm, if not, it's something else.." What pedantic crap. The guys that get it are doing MMA and not trying to make a living off some Bruce Lee connection. Sorry, it's just the way it is.

ok ok, all fair answers..

I guess I'm looking to bridge the street self defense and MMA gap that is not bullshit. Not that I think MMA can't be used to defend yourself, because personal experience tells me that it can. But most MMA gyms out there don't encompass dealing with weapons or multiple attackers. And that's something that would be nice to explore. You have to be extremely skeptical with military martial arts and RBSD gyms as they tend to be ego stroker nut jobs. A vast majority of the TMA weapon defenses are libel to get you killed. i.e. grab the wrist, get cut, hope you can run away before you pass out.

So from the looks of things, at least from my point of view.. it seems Strike [MT, box, kickbox etc.] + Grapple [BJJ, sub-wrestle, etc..] + Knife [kali, escrima, arnes etc...] = win. Is this the only formula for a guy who boxes/grapples but wants to indulge himself in the rest?

Matt Hughes would stomp on that tiny Chinese man so badly it wouldn't even be funny, except to the people who find humor in watching fluffy kittens getting run over by eighteen wheelers.

Basically, it's like "if it works, its JKD tm, if not, it's something else.." What pedantic crap. The guys that get it are doing MMA and not trying to make a living off some Bruce Lee connection. Sorry, it's just the way it is.


If it works, we want to learn how to do it. So yes JKD does include most things that have recieved some exposure in the martial arts scene, and work in real combat.

That's the whole idea!


I mean please explain how "training more than one martial art, and mixing them together to get a well rounded approach" doesn't apply to MMA.

As far as I'm concerned there is no difference except MMA came later, often doesn't have as broad a curriculum, and has an association with sport-fighting.

You are the one who doesn't "get it". Anyone who trains hard in multiple arts, and has an open mind will "get it". It doesn't matter what they call it, the people who are really dedicated will find the truth of fighting, without a stupid label.

You can call it "ching wong choon wung ting" if you want, if you can really fight, and we spar, I will know pretty quickly.

If it works, we want to learn how to do it. So yes JKD does include most things that have recieved some exposure in the martial arts scene, and work in real combat.

That's the whole idea!


I mean please explain how "training more than one martial art, and mixing them together to get a well rounded approach" doesn't apply to MMA.

As far as I'm concerned there is no difference except MMA came later, often doesn't have as broad a curriculum, and has an association with sport-fighting.

You are the one who doesn't "get it". Anyone who trains hard in multiple arts, and has an open mind will "get it". It doesn't matter what they call it, the people who are really dedicated will find the truth of fighting, without a stupid label.

You can call it "ching wong choon wung ting" if you want, if you can really fight, and we spar, I will know pretty quickly.
I see, so JKD stylist are the final arbiter on fighting. Your "get it" stuff sounds like the early EST bullshit that they used to have when I was a kid in the 70's. The Truth of fighting? Were you a marine, or in the royal commandos? Are you a cage fighter? I doubt it. But hey, you could be bad ass, but you're still full of ****.

There is only a "truth" for an individual - my truth is very different from that of an MMA fighter, although there is a large amount of crossover.

The concept of "does it work" must be balanced against the requirement of what it actually works for. To protect yourself from a violent assault and escape requires a different skillset than what I need to perform my job. THAT is the essence of JKD to me.

I've learned a bit more since my dumb ass rants before. this is all i gotta say.

JKD has evolved since bruce died, but to throw out what he originally taught from 66-73 would be bad.

X is JKD. Y is MMA (or anything else you want to learn.)

To Represent and Teach Y, one must drill their students according to Y

This is the same with anyone qualified to teach X

To Justify by trying to interfuse X and Y is basically the denying of Y--But still calling it Y

A garden of roses will yield roses, and a garden of violets will yield violets


The strongest evidence that JKD isnt anything you want it to be comes STRAIGHT OUT OF BRUCE LEE'S MOUFF:

"In any physical movement there is always a most efficient and alive manner to accomplish the purpose of the performance for each individual. That is, in regard to proper leverage, or balance in movement, economical and efficient use of movement and energy, etc.
Live, efficient movement that liberates is one thing; sterile classical sets that bind and condition is another"

There is a crucial distinction here. It is one thing to follow the laws of science. It is quite another to blindly follow what is popular "Knowledge". We used to think the earth was flat. It has been scientifically proven that it is not. That doesn't mean we now revert to saying it is because we feel like it.

It's the same with JKD. We used to think throwing a jab one way was effective. over thousands of years of evolution from the Greeks and Romans, to Figg and Broughton, to Jack Dempsey, all the way down to Bruce Lee's research, we were introduced to a better way of punching. (The JKD Lead Punch) Unfortunately, instead of building on and refining what BL developed, there are those who say--Either out of malice or ignorance--that adding Untested AND un-related techniques or technical embellishments means they are improving JKD. I disagree. Instead of spending the required time on refining and perfecting the fundamentals--Stance, mechanics, footwork--so-called JKD practitioners skip steps, add to techniques without investigating, and never even grasp the most fundamental principles on which JKD is built. Worst of all, they represent their mish mash as JKD.

If you want to add a technique to your arsenal, or embellish on an existing JKD technique, fine. But do not call it Jeet Kune Do, and be prepared to back up its use with sound, scientific evidence.

my $2.22, adjusted for inflation.

I've learned a bit more since my dumb ass rants before. this is all i gotta say.

JKD has evolved since bruce died, but to throw out what he originally taught from 66-73 would be bad.

X is JKD. Y is MMA (or anything else you want to learn.)

To Represent and Teach Y, one must drill their students according to Y

This is the same with anyone qualified to teach X

To Justify by trying to interfuse X and Y is basically the denying of Y--But still calling it Y

A garden of roses will yield roses, and a garden of violets will yield violets


The strongest evidence that JKD isnt anything you want it to be comes STRAIGHT OUT OF BRUCE LEE'S MOUFF:

"In any physical movement there is always a most efficient and alive manner to accomplish the purpose of the performance for each individual. That is, in regard to proper leverage, or balance in movement, economical and efficient use of movement and energy, etc.
Live, efficient movement that liberates is one thing; sterile classical sets that bind and condition is another"

There is a crucial distinction here. It is one thing to follow the laws of science. It is quite another to blindly follow what is popular "Knowledge". We used to think the earth was flat. It has been scientifically proven that it is not. That doesn't mean we now revert to saying it is because we feel like it.

It's the same with JKD. We used to think throwing a jab one way was effective. over thousands of years of evolution from the Greeks and Romans, to Figg and Broughton, to Jack Dempsey, all the way down to Bruce Lee's research, we were introduced to a better way of punching. (The JKD Lead Punch) Unfortunately, instead of building on and refining what BL developed, there are those who say--Either out of malice or ignorance--that adding Untested AND un-related techniques or technical embellishments means they are improving JKD. I disagree. Instead of spending the required time on refining and perfecting the fundamentals--Stance, mechanics, footwork--so-called JKD practitioners skip steps, add to techniques without investigating, and never even grasp the most fundamental principles on which JKD is built. Worst of all, they represent their mish mash as JKD.

If you want to add a technique to your arsenal, or embellish on an existing JKD technique, fine. But do not call it Jeet Kune Do, and be prepared to back up its use with sound, scientific evidence.

my $2.22, adjusted for inflation.

Alex, can you read?

"In any physical movement there is always a most efficient and alive manner to accomplish the purpose of the performance for each individual. That is, in regard to proper leverage, or balance in movement, economical and efficient use of movement and energy, etc.
Live, efficient movement that liberates is one thing; sterile classical sets that bind and condition is another"

For each individual means that if you want or need to change a technique then do it. its still jkd.

jkd is a set of princeiples to be followed, not to be conformed too. as a former bruce lee nut ridder this comes straight from the man himself:

I have not invented a "new style," composite, modified or otherwise that is set within distinct form as apart from "this" method or "that" method. On the contrary, I hope to free my followers from clinging to styles, patterns, or molds. Remember that Jeet Kune Do is merely a name used, a mirror in which to see "ourselves". . . Jeet Kune Do is not an organized institution that one can be a member of. Either you understand or you don't, and that is that. There is no mystery about my style. My movements are simple, direct and non-classical. The extraordinary part of it lies in its simplicity. Every movement in Jeet Kune-Do is being so of itself. There is nothing artificial about it. I always believe that the easy way is the right way. Jeet Kune-Do is simply the direct expression of one's feelings with the minimum of movements and energy. The closer to the true way of Kung Fu, the less wastage of expression there is. Finally, a Jeet Kune Do man who says Jeet Kune Do is exclusively Jeet Kune Do is simply not with it. He is still hung up on his self-closing resistance, in this case anchored down to reactionary pattern, and naturally is still bound by another modified pattern and can move within its limits. He has not digested the simple fact that truth exists outside all molds; pattern and awareness is never exclusive. Again let me remind you Jeet Kune Do is just a name used, a boat to get one across, and once across it is to be discarded and not to be carried on one's back.

From this we gather a few important points:

1) JKD is a direct, simple, non-classical method (means that there a set principles)

2) JKD is reliant upon the individual (means that techniques can be changed)

3) JKD is not one thing, its not one mold (means not all techniqes are fixed. they can be added or discarded as nessacary)

In other words, stfu stupid. Learn to read, gain knowledge, and then speak.

Thank god for Couch. I promised myself I wouldn't get into any more stupid arguments on this board. Almost fell off the wagon when i read that.

After all it isn't like Bruce just used other peoples techniques to make JKD. It was all original innovation cause Bruce was really Jesus incarnate.

I'm %100 sure Dan Inosanto would beat Bruce Lee up. Why? Because they were PARTNERS. They were developing JKD TOGETHER. Bruce died more than thirty years ago. That means Dan has had more than thirty years to refine and practice JKD, while Bruce has been dead.

I just don't get this nuthugging thing with "Bruce Lee was the peak of martial arts skill. Nobody will ever be better than him, and everyone should just do exactly what he was doing when he was alive.

I've been doing JKD since I was a child and as far as I'm concerned that's the exact opposite of the JKD philosophy.

I think Bruce would puke if he came back from the dead and saw the way people are nuthugging him now. That's never what it was about. At least not for anyone who cares about fighting more than big famous celebrity people.

I've learned a bit more since my dumb ass rants before.

Yet you are still completely wrong. More knowledge is not always a good thing

"It is not the daily increase but daily decrease...", "find the cause of your own ignorance..."

Does any of that sound familiar? JKD is a lifestyle approach not just a martial art. Your ill-informed and dated tirade flies in the face of everything JKD stands for. You represent inertia and tradition.



my $2.22, adjusted for inflation.

And still not worth it

Do you really think that Bruce would be happy with you embalming his corpse and worshipping it? Honour his memory, remove your blinkers and for god's sake stop digging yourself into these holes....and if you do end up in one, just stop digging and climb out.

look i'm not worshipping BL, he is not an invincible demigod, just a good Martial Artist.

I'm just saying that if you add anything to JKD you have to make sure it isnt inefficient or un economical, and should be based on Science.

Once you add to JKD it becomes YOUR JKD, and it isnt BRUCE LEE'S JKD.

Dan Inosanto would probably beat up bruce. Hes been evolving for what, 40 years now?

all i'm saying is that in order to change JKD, you have to make sure all the pre-73 stuff still applies after changes are made.

And another thing. as far as nutriding , Let he who hath not sinned cast the first stone.
lots of people on this site nutride the gracies and Cro Cop and Fedor all the time. see me complain about it? no. I like them just as much as i like Bruce Lee. Someone who has a high level of skill such as Bruce Lee or Bas Rutten or Jake LaMotta or Muhammad Ali deserves to be admired damnit!

I'm just saying that if you add anything to JKD you have to make sure it isnt inefficient or un economical, and should be based on Science.

Not strictly true - Chuck Liddell punches wrong but still knocks people cold. The core principle of JKD is "does it work?"...everything else - even science (whatever that means) - is secondary


Once you add to JKD it becomes YOUR JKD, and it isnt BRUCE LEE'S JKD.

THAT IS THE FUCKING POINT!!!!! YOU ARE NOT BRUCE LEE SO WHAT YOU ARE DOING BY DEFINITION HAS TO BE YOUR JKD - WHAT ABOUT THIS IS SO FUCKING HARD TO GRASP?!!!??

sorry to rant on that but you seem to have missed teh point of JKD completely

"your way is not my way, my way is not your way..."


Dan Inosanto would probably beat up bruce. Hes been evolving for what, 40 years now?

Exactly E-V-O-L-V-I-N-G.....not stuck in 1973


all i'm saying is that in order to change JKD, you have to make sure all the pre-73 stuff still applies after changes are made.

Nope, wrong, wrong and wrong. If the 73 stuff does not fit with you after you try it, bin it! I HATE chi sao for example