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magikchiongson
2/19/2003 3:54pm,
Walter Williams

Were blacks better off under apartheid?

http://www.NewsAndOpinion.com -- MORAL crusaders have the habit of heading off to their next crusade without bothering to see whether anything went wrong on their last one. During the '80s, TransAfrica, NAACP, Black Congressional Caucus, Hollywood glitterati, college students, and other groups held massive protests on college campuses and at the South African Embassy, built shanty towns, and called for disinvestment and sanctions against South Africa for its racist apartheid system.


There's no longer apartheid and there's black rule in South Africa, but what's the story there now? Andrew Kenny writes about it in his article, "Black People Aren't Animals." The article appears in the December 15 issue of the British magazine The Spectator, the world's oldest continuously published English language magazine (est. 1838).


Each South African day sees an average of 59 murders, 145 rapes and 752 serious assaults out of its 42 million population. The new crime is the rape of babies; some AIDS-infected African men believe that having sex with a virgin is a cure. Twelve percent of South Africa's population is HIV-positive, but President Mbeki says that HIV cannot cause AIDS.


In response to growing violence, South Africa's minister of safety and security, Steve Tshwete, says: "We can't police this; there's nothing more we can do. South Africa's currency, the rand, has fallen about 70 percent since the African National Congress (ANC) came to power in 1994. Emigration from South Africa (mainly of skilled people) is now at its highest level ever."


Kenny asks, "Is South Africa doomed to follow the rest of Africa into oblivion?" He says no, but I'm not as optimistic because of the pattern nearly everywhere else in sub-Saharan Africa. The tragic fact of business is that ordinary Africans were better off under colonialism. Colonial masters never committed anything near the murder and genocide seen under black rule in Rwanda, Burundi, Uganda, Nigeria, Mozambique, Somalia and other countries, where millions of blacks have been slaughtered in unspeakable ways, which include: hacking to death, boiling in oil, setting on fire and dismemberment. If as many elephants, zebras and lions had been as ruthlessly slaughtered, the world's leftists would be in a tizzy.


When Zimbabwe, then Southern Rhodesia, was under white rule, the ANC demanded the ouster of Prime Minister Ian Smith and the installation of black rule. Today, Zimbabwe's Minister Robert Mugabe commits gross violations of black and white human rights. With the help of lawless thugs, Mugabe has undertaken a land-confiscation program from white farmers. Instead of condemning Zimbabwe human-rights abuses, the South African government has given Mugabe its unqualified support.


Kenny says that whites treat blacks like animals. When a dog misbehaves, we don't blame the dog -- we blame the owner for improper training. In Africa, when blacks behave badly, Kenny says colonialism, imperialism, apartheid, globalization or multi-nationalism is blamed for not bringing up blacks properly. Liberals saw South Africa's apartheid and other human-rights abuses as unjust because blacks were suffering at the hands of whites. They hold whites accountable to civilized standards of behavior. Blacks are not held to civilized standards of behavior. From the liberal's point of view, it might even be racist to expect blacks to adhere to civilized standards of behavior.


During South Africa's apartheid era, I visited several times and lectured at just about every university. In a 1987 syndicated column, I wrote: "Africa's past experience should give Western anti-apartheid activists some pause for thought. Wouldn't it be the supreme tragedy if South African blacks might ponder at some future date, like the animals of Jones' Manor (George Orwell's Animal Farm), whether they were better off under apartheid? That's why blacks must answer what's to come after apartheid? Black rule alone is no guarantee for black freedom."

The Wastrel
2/19/2003 4:14pm,
Hmmm...strange conclusion. One problem is that a colonial administration is not the same as an apartheid government. The ENGLISH were very good at administering colonial territories. Especially in comparison to the others. I think it's more persuasive to argue that apartheid helped create and reinforce a permanent undereducated underclass of South African blacks. The author fails to make any identifiable point. Blacks can't govern? Why? And it's hard to fault the ANC (incompetent as they are) for the AIDS epidemic. That's a worldwide problem, and the major determinant appears to be access to modern health care, not race. That would have been no different under apartheid. Probably worse. And most of the HIV population in South Africa is among migrant laborers, particularly from Malawi, who come to work in the gold mines.
Anyway Magik, this guy's writing is not very good. I suggest if you want a taste of a good liberal perspective you read Christopher Hitchens. There are also much better conservatives than Walter Williams. He's a nutcase.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

The Wastrel
2/19/2003 4:15pm,
Forgot to mention: This article demonstrates the "post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy. "After this, therefore BECAUSE of this."

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

gong sau
2/19/2003 8:33pm,
I have a question. WTF is this thread doing in the Trad. MA section? <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>

rellik_yzarc
2/19/2003 8:40pm,
yeah wtf man?

Gezere
2/20/2003 1:14am,
I was thinking the same thing but I don't know how to move threads yet so I will ask KC or prhost to but this in the off topic forum


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mystsa
2/20/2003 11:38am,
I actually live in South Africa so let me tell you how it is.

I am a white South African. South Africa is a beatiful place. But you have a huge difference between the well off and the not so well off. Sometimes I forget I am living in Africa, here we have everything a first world country has satellite TV, World class Universities and modern cars. But all I come back to reality when I drive past a shanty town (believe me there are many). In the past there was a divide between black and white. Now it is a divide between the haves and have nots.

The ANC under Nelson Mandela was brilliant and he is considered by all(black and white) to be the father of the nation. But under Thabo Mbeki things are not so rosy. First he said he doubt whether HIV causes AIDS, so we were embarassed in front of the global comunity by a seemingly incompetent leader. So under this kind of leadership there was a lag in the development of prevention and education programs. The government is still not providing antiretrovirals to the infected. And we are only now seeing a half arsed education program.

Public health care is going down the toilet. I would not set foot in a publis hospital. The conditions are atrocious. The fact of the matter is that we have excellent doctors but there has been large scale downsizing of the labour force so there are too few. The people that really **** up our hospitals is the nurses. There are too few so there is a lot of pressure on them and they suck already. There was a case of a man who had meningitis who was diagnosed by the docotor but only received his first medication 48 hours later because the nurse didnt know how to prioritize.

Crime here is pretty bad. Everybody in my neighbourhood has 8 ft. spiked fencing around their houses and alarm systems and contracts with security companies. My next door neighbour was hijacked right in front of his house about a week ago. The other day I heard a gun fight in the direction of the township it must have lasted for about 20 minutes.

The worst thing fir me is that there is that criminals have more rights than victims. Coming form a history of violence our constitutuin affords criminals too many rights. for example : A couple of months ago 3 armed men walked into an estate agents office and shot her. Her husband went got his gun and shot and killed 2 of the men. Now he is up on murder charges. A police man can only fire on a suspect once the suspect opens fire on him.

I could go on all day. If you have any questions please feel free to ask.

magikchiongson
2/20/2003 11:49am,
Arrgh yah, was in a hurry yesterday. I was about to get off work and I was reading some TMA threads, forgot I was in this forum before I clicked Post New. Yah Mods move it please...

I think the question whether S. Africa was better off under Apartheid or not, was rhetorical. The more important question being, How come the West doesn't take much notice of the mess S. Africa is in now? I think Williams' point wasn't that Blacks can't govern, but rather they should be held to the same standards as any other Governing body. So if they aren't Governing well, we should perhaps criticize more than we are now.

What I get out of the article is, Good Government vs Bad Government. Apartheid, was horrible, this new Government now is horrible too. Thre was a push to get rid of the White Government of S. Africa and replace with it a Black Government but in the end what is the result? Its still a bad Government. Perhaps the focus should have been more on placing a Good Government rather than just focusing on race?

Africans aren't animals, we can sit here and blame the white "owners" all we want for what happened, but what good is that going to do? Its just that some people seem to look at S. Africa like its a Bad Owner= Bad Dog relationship, only that S. Africans aren't dogs, they're people.

PeedeeShaolin
2/20/2003 12:01pm,
Africa was just fine before Western culture shoved its nose into their business.

You dont need BMW's and big screen TV's to be happy. If everyone would have simply left those people ALONE they wouldnt be in the situation they're in.

FingerorMoon?
2/20/2003 8:30pm,
Osiris: We're here to compete. To build empires.

LEAD THE WAY, I WILL FOLLOW THEE TO GLORY !!!! :)

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What would happen if a one hand clapper attempted to stop a tree falling in the woods when no one else was around?
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jing shen gou
2/20/2003 9:42pm,
I must agree with Osiris and PeeDee.
It's my view that pre colonial Africa was far better off. You didn't have alien cultures trying to rule people they had ZERO under standing of.
The Brits, Portugese, Germans,etc. etc. seriously fucked up the African continent.
And look what happened after they pulled out.
Chaos. Honestly If the above mentioned ntions had never gone off on a wild empire building frenzy, Things MIGHT not be as bad as they are now for almost all African nations.

the world you live in is just a sugar coated toping. beneath it is another world. The real world. and to survive there you must learn to pull the trigger!!!-Blade

magikchiongson
2/21/2003 3:23pm,
Not to endorse Colonialism or anything, but just how much of Pre-Colonialism Africa do we know of?

Shaka Zulu wasn't exactly much better than the Europeans, he was more like the Gengis Khan of Africa. I dunno, what's the difference between Europeans or Africans burning down your village and killing your ass?

The Wastrel
2/21/2003 11:25pm,
The Africans will integrate you into the society eventually. They all looked similar. The Africans respected boundaries.

Osiris, this is just not true. We can't superimpose our concept of race over the social definitions that predominate in the African continent.



**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

magikchiongson
2/24/2003 10:01am,
Nah more like, African Empire Conquers you, kills you, takes your daughters and marry them off to their men and your particular ethnic group is wiped out. Just because you look alike doesn't mean you will be integrated (there's a good chance that you will, but that's not a given), that wasn't always true for Europe I'm sure it wasn't true for Africa. Nordic Prussians didn't integrate Slavs, they killed them, just as Zulus would do if they ran into Somalis.

My thoughts are, does it really matter who's screwing you over? If a white man was screwing me over, and a asian man was screwing me over am I supposed to be extra angry on the White man?

The Wastrel
2/24/2003 12:39pm,
Osiris,
Black Africans don't think about race the same way Americans do. Tutsis raped Hutus and vice versa in order to find out what the others' women "tasted" like.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

warmonx
3/06/2003 12:06pm,
mystsa leave that hole its a lost cause.