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tkdan28
1/21/2005 3:40pm,
Gladiators weren't like Russell Crowe, they were like David Beckham

http://news.scotsman.com/scitech.cfm?id=70132005


HEROIC fights to the death between enslaved gladiators never happened, according to a controversial new theory.

The research, which disputes images of ancient combat such as those seen in the Russell Crowe epic Gladiator, suggests that the fighters of yore would have far more in common with the overblown histrionics of modern-day premier league footballers or WWE wrestlers: highly trained, overpaid and pampered professionals with throngs of groupies - and an interest in not getting too badly injured.

Research into medieval and renaissance combat manuals has led one classical scholar to suggest that gladiatorial fighting had become more of a martial art at the beginning of the first millennium, a report in New Scientist reveals.

To thrill the crowds around the arena the combatants would "display" broad fighting skills rather than battle for their lives, according to Professor Steve Tuck of the University of Miami.

"Gladiatorial combat is seen as being related to killing and shedding of blood, but I think that what we are seeing is an entertaining martial art that was spectator-oriented," he said.

Prof Tuck focused on fighting methods used by pairs of gladiators in one-to-one combat, as opposed to mass battles or staged events, and examined 158 images that show combat, such as a gladiator pinning down his opponent, his shield and sword on the ground.

Such gladiatorial art adorns practically all Roman artefacts, from lamps, gems and pottery to large-scale wall paintings.

To try to ascertain more fully what these scenes show, Prof Tuck turned to the pages of fighting and martial-arts manuals produced in Germany and northern Italy in medieval and renaissance times. These provided instruction in everything from sword-fighting to wrestling. He argues that, as such, they are a good parallel for gladiatorial combat.

He said: "They are incredibly important because they show sequences of moves and have accompanying descriptions."

From the manuals and art, Prof Tuck concludes there were often three critical moments in such fights.

The first was initial contact, with both opponents fully armed and moving forward while going for body shots. The second was when one gladiator was wounded and sought to distance himself from his opponent. In the third, both gladiators dropped their shields, seemingly undamaged, before grappling with each other.

In the books, this very act of throwing down shields and weapons to grapple was a common way to conclude a fight, without necessarily intending to finish off an opponent.

Prof Tuck concludes from the Roman art he has examined that the same happened during gladiatorial bouts.

In addition, the fighters were often patronised in the form of large sums of money from members of the very highest echelons of Roman society.

Prof Tuck said: "The emperor Marcus Aurelius put salary caps on gladiators, and to get to this state of affairs they must have represented a massive capital outlay for their owners.

"Now, it makes no sense at all for the gladiators, at such cost, to be killed in battle, because it would be like throwing money away. The gladiators were meant to be recognised, similar to the famous sportspeople of today, and they had great status comparable to the highest levels of professional athletes.

"By that fact alone they are not disposable, and their owners would not expect to lose their investment every time somebody stepped out into the arena.

"Famous gladiators seemed to have fought very rarely, perhaps two or three times a year, much like professional boxers do today.

"The aim was not to kill the opponent but, as the Roman poet Martial says, to ‘win without wounding’."

Bryn Walters, the director of the British Association for Roman Archaeology, agreed with Prof Tuck.

He said: "Gladiators were entertainers, sports stars, and they were the privately owned, pampered Beckhams of their day. They did not go into the arena to die, because they cost far too much for that to happen on anything like a regular basis. Senators, wealthy businessmen and emperors were hardly going to have their best sporting stars butchered in the arena to appease the masses.

"The only people that died were those that were sent into the arena to be executed, and they were prisoners, convicts, criminals and those captured from wars and skirmishes."

The fight books, which have been translated only during the past five years, provide new insights, placing increased significance on the shieldless ground wrestling.

In addition, there are literary references to gladiators being trained to subdue without bloodshed, and also evidence that by the second century AD, gladiators were extremely expensive, adding further weight to the notion that deaths were not the point of the entertainment.

Previous research by experimental archaeologists from both Vienna and Munich universities certainly backs up the claims of Prof Tuck. Examination of the remains of gladiators at the ancient city of Ephesus in Turkey allowed researchers to conclude that they received the best medical treatment.

Bones 2,000 years old revealed that gladiators ate highly nutritional food to develop a substantial layer of subcutaneous fat over their muscles to protect them from cuts inflicted during bouts of fighting.

Ancient literature also reveals that attending gladiator fights was considered a more intellectual pastime than going to the theatre, with fights promoting principles of bravery and honour while drama was just entertainment. GJJ anyone?

nasty_totoro
1/21/2005 4:58pm,
tell that to spartacus ...

Anna Kovacs
1/21/2005 6:25pm,
I'm spartacus.

Stefanoski
1/21/2005 10:47pm,
http://radio-canada.ca/television/cinema/img_films/spartacus.jpg <--- Hardcore

El Tejon
1/22/2005 8:12am,
You mean the Gracies invented Gladitors? :adora:

Don Gwinn
1/22/2005 12:09pm,
El Tejon, don't be dense. He's simply saying that Rickson would have armbarred all the gladiators.


Hey, this guy isn't associated with the Bullshidoka who claims to teach people the martial art of the gladiators, is he? That guy claimed to have learned at least part of the directly transmitted gladiatorial martial arts (GMA?) from the European fechtbuchs, too.


Some of that fits with what is already known, but only from the Roman point of view. First of all, the average Roman adult male was fairly likely a veteran of some really vicious fighting in the Roman army. Their idea of what constituted "more blood than art" was very different than ours.

Second, his point about the most expensive gladiators not being sent out to die is a good one. However, he draws a conclusion that is not necessary. The accepted explanation of this concept is that such "stars" most often faced far inferior slaves. This could be compared to putting a "tomato can" in front of a great MMA fighter today. The idea was that the big stars were not in much danger from such fighters.
Now, I'm not saying that's been proven, either, simply that there's more evidence for it than the idea that all gladiatorial combat was submission MMA with a little sword-and-shield point-sparring thrown in for the sake of spectacle.

I haven't seen the research, but I imagine that an examination of what we currently know about the output of the known gladiatorial "schools" could tell us whether the graduates were being "consumed" at a give rate, which should tell us if death was a common outcome. After all, slave-gladiators didn't quit and start hardwood flooring businesses when they got tired of the fight game.


It is absolutely incontrovertible (and I notice he didn't try) that gladiatorial combat began with Etruscan nobles forcing household slaves and prisoners of war to fight to the death at funerals and banquets and grew from there. It grew through several phases before it finally died out. It was also often featured in the same "show" as wrestling, boxing, racing, animal hunting, mock battles (even sea battles at the height of the Coliseum) which might further confuse someone looking for evidence of grappling in gladiatorial combat.

I'm sure grappling happened, but to conclude that just because there was a picture of it, it must have been the predetermined end of all gladiatorial combat . . . . that's a reach.

People keep reaching for ways to make gladiatorial combat more respectable and less inhuman because people are fascinated by it and they realize, on some level, that it takes a certain kind of sickness and bloodlust to have that interest. People don't like to believe that they would have cheered while some human being was gutted in the arena, but that's the reality of the human soul. Only by facing that attraction to violence for what it is do we control it.

Don Gwinn
1/22/2005 2:12pm,
Hey, this guy isn't associated with the Bullshidoka who claims to teach people the martial art of the gladiators, is he? That guy claimed to have learned at least part of the directly transmitted gladiatorial martial arts (GMA?) from the European fechtbuchs, too.

Ah, here he is:
http://www.trsdirect.com/product.php?sku=CB-77

Xango
1/22/2005 2:20pm,
Spartacus was crucified.

Lights Out
1/22/2005 6:10pm,
People keep reaching for ways to make gladiatorial combat more respectable and less inhuman because people are fascinated by it and they realize, on some level, that it takes a certain kind of sickness and bloodlust to have that interest. People don't like to believe that they would have cheered while some human being was gutted in the arena, but that's the reality of the human soul. Only by facing that attraction to violence for what it is do we control it.

This makes me wonder... in all honesty, if you were aroman citizen in those days, would you go to the gladiators spectacle or would you be repulsed at it? Yes, we cannot view those days with the glasses of the modern world. But as MMA, boxing and such has its detractors, sure thing in those days some people would demonize gladiators and the like.

As for me, I can see me cheering while my favourite gladiator kills an opponent. In all honesty.

Stefanoski
1/22/2005 10:02pm,
Spartacus was crucified.

Spartacus was killed fighting in northern Italy, a good portion of his army was crucified.

Don Gwinn
1/29/2005 8:13pm,
Lights out, the fact that you can be honest about it puts you ahead of many people.

In a way, such what-ifs are pointless. We ARE NOT ancient Romans. We can't really decide what we would do as ancient Romans any more than we can decide what we would do as grizzly bears (which we also are not, though I've been accused of it more than once.)

But we ARE human beings, as were they. There were elements of them that survived to become elements of us, but that's all.

On the other hand, the fact that you or I might have enjoyed gladiatorial combat if we'd been born Romans does not mean that we are evil people today. That was then, this is now.

JohnnyCache
1/30/2005 1:48am,
I'd enjoy gladitorial combat now, if I got to pick who fought:

"I give you . . . Carrot Top Vs Gallagher: In the Battle of the Prop Comics, Whoever loses, We Win"

Wasn't, ah....gladiation ....around for a long time? I always thought it changed a lot, from a full-on "Let's wet our swords for aries" type thing early on to something more like a prize-fight later...

Don Gwinn
1/30/2005 12:45pm,
It did, but there's no evidence it ever reached a stage where it was literally a prize-fight, as in no intentional fatalities. It started as fights between slaves (often prisoners of war or just household slaves) held by Etruscan nobles, usually at funeral feasts. The killing was a key part of the display and something of an offering in honor of the dead noble guy.
When it became a public spectacle for Romans, yes, some gladiators became famous, some even got rich. But I would imagine the numbers were similar to the number of rich, famous pro boxers today. Count 'em on your fingers. For everybody else, slavery at best and death by nasty means at worst.

Notice the stuff they threw in there to try to make that plausible--the gladiators ate nutritious food to grow a layer of subcutaneous fat to protect against sword cuts? WTF is that? Is there any part of the human body that offers less resistance to a cut than fat?

liuzg150181
2/02/2005 4:49am,
Notice the stuff they threw in there to try to make that plausible--the gladiators ate nutritious food to grow a layer of subcutaneous fat to protect against sword cuts? WTF is that? Is there any part of the human body that offers less resistance to a cut than fat?
Uh......sumo?
Bring in the gladiatress!!! :boxing:

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
2/02/2005 4:53am,
I'm spartacus.

I'm the real Spartacus!

Ronin
2/02/2005 6:31am,
I'm Sparatacus !!

Seriously, I am.

No, I mean it.

DAMN IT !!

I AM !!!!!!