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storm_shadow
1/03/2005 11:52am,
I was told on a small forum site that this style had no lineage and that it's main man J. williams (canada) was a hoax. Can anyone shed any light on this matter.

UK web site is below
http://www.ukjujitsu.com/

The international site
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/4856/

Peter H.
1/03/2005 3:10pm,
Not a hoax, but there was a Soke Rogers who trained with Dr. Rod the fraud, but I undrestand he died in 2001. I am warry of anyone who wears their belt outside of their hakam though.

Dochter
1/03/2005 3:19pm,
Zen Mugendo KickboxingBilly Blanks is banging his alien-esque forehead into a hall in frustration at lost franchise income. That and the absolute absurdity of such a title.

Ronin
1/03/2005 3:20pm,
Most, if not all, legit ryu are registered with the budokan, so its pretty easy to see the lineage and such, though after an individual leaves a ryu and creates their own, what they do then is up to them.

storm_shadow
1/03/2005 4:16pm,
Not a hoax, but there was a Soke Rogers who trained with Dr. Rod the fraud, but I undrestand he died in 2001. I am warry of anyone who wears their belt outside of their hakam though.

The first link is a site of soke rogers, has he died? it seems not according to his site. I was just wondering about this style because everyhigh grade i see advertising does this style :?

Peter H.
1/03/2005 4:18pm,
I don't think its the same guy:
http://members.cox.net/jldavid/Web/new_page_2.htm

Aikidoka82
1/03/2005 6:10pm,
Williams and his "Daito-ryu" have been discussed extensively in other forums. E.g. E-budo: http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2561&perpage=15&pagenumber=1 and Aikido Journal: http://www.aikidojournal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6310&start=15&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=
These people have already said everything much better than I can.

Bizzaro Root
1/03/2005 8:14pm,
Let It Be Known That
Zen Kenpo Ryu Saigo Ha Daito Ryu
Kenpo & Aiki Bujutsu Is The Traditional Fighting Arts

Of The Minamoto and Aizu clan Samurai which can trace its ancestry back to the
emperor Senwa Tenno
In 850AD
The Daito Ryu Was Inherited by soemon Takeda1853
Who passed it on to
Tanomo Saigo
Who in turn passed it on to his son
Shiro Saigo
Who passed it on to
Yamashita Houei
He passed it on to
Lin Po
Who passed it to
Pok Shen
Who passed it to the currant head of Family
Gunshi John Williams
Who Graded Martin J Rogers To
Sho Dai Soke 9th Dan
Menkyo Kaiden Shihan Of
Zen Kenpo Ryu Saigo Ha Daito Ryu
Aiki Jujutsu

Below Is Soke Rogers Menkyos And Kyojudairi teaching licence's

http://www.ukjujitsu.com/sitebuilder/images/Kyojudairiirogers.2-365x236.jpg http://www.ukjujitsu.com/sitebuilder/images/image002-356x215.jpg http://www.bullshido.net/images-misc/martinrogersbullshido.jpg http://www.ukjujitsu.com/sitebuilder/images/image001-197x288.jpg

[Staff note: Third image edited to remove trademark at the request of Andrew Morrell, President & Founder C.M.A.A. www.cmaa.co.uk who should consider his associates more wisely it seems.]

storm_shadow
1/04/2005 4:33am,
Ok look closely at the certs, i have done some research and found that he heads the Zen Kenpo jujitsu association, sotherefore he awarded that cert to himself :?

MrMcFu
1/04/2005 5:26am,
What the **** is this crap?


be totally assured that you will be receiving 100% professional tuition

Be totally assured WE will be recieving 100% of our tution, that YOU owe us.

Aikidoka82
1/04/2005 8:06am,
these people may or may not be good martial artists, but I call bullshit on their lineage and on the name of their style

Jenfucius
1/04/2005 10:48pm,
Not a hoax, but there was a Soke Rogers who trained with Dr. Rod the fraud, but I undrestand he died in 2001. I am warry of anyone who wears their belt outside of their hakam though.
i've seen it done in japan. i think it's gay, but i've seen it done

Kinzei
1/04/2005 11:20pm,
Looks somewhat suspect to me. I am not familiar with his history or lineage, but I have only been training a short while. I will ask my sensei if he is familiar with it.

It is also my understanding that Katsuyuki Kondo is the recognized head of Daito Ryu.

M.C. Busman
1/13/2005 4:23pm,
I have major problems with Williams and his lineage. Read:

[....]Of The Minamoto and Aizu clan Samurai which can trace its ancestry back to the
emperor Senwa Tenno
In 850AD
The Daito Ryu Was Inherited by soemon Takeda1853
Who passed it on to
Tanomo Saigo
Who in turn passed it on to his son
Shiro Saigo
Who passed it on to
Yamashita Houei
He passed it on to
Lin Po
Who passed it to
Pok Shen
Who passed it to the currant head of Family
Gunshi John Williams [...]

There is NO, absolutely NO supporting evidence for the teacher Williams calls Pok Shen, who he says taught him in a garage for a few years before moving. Nor for Lin Po.

John Williams thus far has NOT shown any photos or scrolls from Pok Shen (or anything else to show the man ever existed for that matter!) which suggest his claims might be legitimate. Where he learned his DR from, I can only guess. Why the rest of the Aikido/Daito-ryu establishment is treating this with kid gloves is anybody's guess.

Williams at one time had a close relationship to Rod Sacharnoski, and I believe was/is also affiliated with George Parulski. BOTH of these men have backgrounds which (according to my searches tus far) lead nowhere.

There has also been some good-humored discussion over William's use of te term "gunshi".


Have a Groovey Day,

M.C. Busman

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
1/14/2005 12:05am,
All the points seem to be covered, so I'll throw a question out;

Why the **** does the name of a ju jutsu style have the word for "longsword" in it?

Miguksaram
1/14/2005 3:29pm,
Excellent work people. However, this should be in Bullshido General Population, since this becoming more of a fraud exposure than actual historical discussion.