It depends entirly on the practitioner, and how they trained their students. Moy Yat was good. Sunny Tang is good, and Wong Shun Leung became a legned for a reason. You would never see them straighten their front leg. And their Chi Sau is anything but static. There is as much bullshit in Wing Chun as there is in Karate. So many people say they know Wing Chun when they don't. There are maybe 3 family lineages in the world that are good. The reason Wing Chun is hung up on lineage is that it is one of the only ways to determine bullshiters from real practitioners, especially for beginners. But just because a master was trained under Yip Man doesn't mean he was good. Look at William Cheung's students in Australia, they put their weight on their front foot when they practice stepping.

Nowadays when I see people from the Yip Man lineage doing things I see: wide, static chi saus, sometimes with arms pushing in in a pulsing way, no stance (just standing with wide open stance with legs apart), no footwork, little emphasis on the conditioning side of the art.

he watered down Wing Chun -- removed the leg work components, focused on things like rolling punches, doesnt worry about difficult things like keeping your elbow along the centreline etc etc.



This seems to be a result of poor teching on the part of whomever you've seen. What the reason may be, is anyone's guess. I know the sifus at my school train with crisp, proper technique and train very hard, conditioning included. Speaking from experience, where i train we focus on high energy chi sao with lots of movement. Chi gerk is practiced, and the "principles of _ing __un" are very strongly focused on. We also do alot of conditioning. Being that many of the folks on here frown upon _ing __un, this may be meaningless to alot of the people reading this, but i don't care.

Be careful Lefty, Shuma-Gorath knows all about street fighting, he comes from the mean streets of... Wait for it.... Toronto.


Heheh yeah, I saw the throwdown he did... It's funny when the coaches are yelling out at him like a newbie when going for the grapple. There's no power in those punches too, its like its all long range point scoring with no bridging the gap ability, and little meaningful footwork at all.

The bullshido clan on here who hang together and bag _ing __un regardless of anything hold him up like an example of a practitioner too.

They are unaware of the many positive parallels between the bare-knuckled boxing (of the late 1800's to early 1900's eg. Jack Dempsey) and _ing __un's approach, or the fact that many of the bullshido krotty, jj clan think their own MAs arent worth **** after training in them for years.

Some pics of WC people doing the straight legged stance... argh.. i'm assuming some of these people are quite senior.. 'sifu' level (sigh) or at least black sash.

http://www.blitzdefence-schule.de/img/galerie/demo/11.jpg
http://www.wt-lehrer.de/img/galerie/demo/5.jpg
http://www.wt-lehrer.de/img/galerie/misc/30.jpg
http://sefuyuen.tripod.com/Photo/san-diego/Untitled5.jpg
http://www.wt-schule.de/img/galerie/misc/37.jpg

CBF doing anymore... theres heaps out there. Some have a few people doing it in the same pic... sometimes its hard to know if its bad form or what theyve been told to do.

God, only the fourth picture is worth seeing. The Rest of the guys are just standing up regularly. That isn't right. And I find it hard to believe that they caught all 4 of those pictures at a "rest" moment.

Their S&%T would get completely ruined by a front WC kick to the knee. Completely ruined.

The way students and I are taught where we train, is to KEEP DOWN, and use almost a pigeon toed stance, but its not exaggerated like some. Its to allow for the ease of blocking kicks to the nuts, and to distribute your wieght 50/50.
At first its really strange to work like that because you are using muscles not normally used. But after a couple of months it becomes second nature, and *I* feel allows for faster kicks both from leading and rear legs.

Wing Chun looks funny sometimes, especially slow. But I think it is effective at least the way my teacher does it.

The important thing to remember about Wing Chun is how secretive it was until recently. Until Yip Man and Bruce Lee, no one had really heard of Wing Chun, and it certainly was not taught to westerners. Due to this fact several legends have arisen as to its origins. The traditional version is that it was developped by the abbess of the Shaolin temple Ng Mui, and that it was passed on to Yim Wing Chun, which is where the name came from. The fact that it was a woman who supposedly engineered the art only indicates that it does not rely on strength, but on body mechanics like aikido. However, this occured around the time the manchurians invaded China. This means that the legend may have been a cover to prevent the government from finding out where it really came from and who engineered it. Another theory proposed that it was created as a fast training close quarters combat system to train an anti-manchurian force, which eventually evolved in to the modern day triads. On the subject of wether Wing Chun has been changed, it most certainly has. The weapons forms were supposed to have been added after, especially the pole form; which was added while Wing Chun was being developped in the Red Junk Opera. Anyways, the reason Wing Chun has changed (though I believe it always had a core of techniques) is because it is a pragmatic system. If something doesn't have a purpose and is not tested and true it is dicarded.


Read, then post.

In fairness to shuma, Austrailia is not reknowned outside of its own borders for its 'mean streets' either.

(I know better. Every Aussie I've ever met has been a bit of a loon)

Be careful Lefty, Shuma-Gorath knows all about street fighting, he comes from the mean streets of... Wait for it.... Toronto.


i know all about street fighting and i come from toronto.

who the **** are you to talk **** like that? i know that melbourne is second only to compton for its mean streets and all. i mean christ i bet a big poofter like you has never been to toronto much less read anything about it. get back to your prison colony loser.

i know all about street fighting and i come from toronto.

who the **** are you to talk **** like that? i know that melbourne is second only to compton for its mean streets and all. i mean christ i bet a big poofter like you has never been to toronto much less read anything about it. get back to your prison colony loser.


I am distinctly reminded of Bill Hicks' "Hooligans" monolouge.

Melbourne is like one big Mad Max movie, except you cant drive for the kangaroos hopping down the streets.

One stance only. If you mean actually standing in front of someone or thing.
Wing Chun has one that I know of, but I've not read enough books, seen enough movies, or talked to the gods of war yet.
Everything else is moving... always...honest...trust me...you know you want to.
Now karate, they gots stances.
Wing Chun, well, we should be moving around. I personlly hate getting tagged with a solid shot. It's just a good idea to keep advantage of the "line" (Wing Chun patent pending). And not only do the feet move, our hands move also...constantly... we use them to touch people with fists and pointy fingers and elbows. I have even kicked someone,... low. Wing Chun in UFC. Sorry, but I don't train that hard, and I like my teeth. Besides, thoses gloves would clash with the WC reputed yellow streak. Then of cource, we would need more rules, or, is it less rules.
"A body at rest is dead." Newton, I believe.... Yes! Wayne Newton, at Sinatra's funeral.
Look, I think using the "arts" word is a not very clever way for some fighters to qualify as an artist; one who interprets and creates etc... So all you "artists" keep watching and analysing vids and pics, and comparing proffessional fight training with the average joe putting in their hour or two a week at the Y.

Sometimes it's like CNN in here. "This just in, Wing Chun is actually a myth; MMA arts incorpates Flamingo dance moves in for matches held at ballroom; BJJ actually oringinated in Peru."

You got a system, enjoy. You don't have a system, good luck.

Now I'm really angry. I'm going out and chi sau someone to death. This could take awhile. Don't wait up.

Good first post.


Wing Chun still sucks.

To get tough, you have to train hard.

Wing Chun stops being Wing Chun when it is trained hard.

It's one of them, waddya call it, catch 22s.

Train hard to get tough? What does tough have to to do with training hard? You think maybe, just maybe, tough is an natural attribute? An attribute that is relative to the situation? MMA probably overstated things like tough, iron chin, stamina, strength, but, by decree it is relevant to the cage, octagon, or broom closet that it's fought in and the rules that govern it. Remember when the toughest guys wore gi's. Let's say we bring back the good old days and everybody wear gi's, and see how the current tough guys fare (smiles suddenly appear on the faces of the BJJers all over the world). Or we could have gloves with spikes and see how the dynamics change. Naked? Good enough for the Greeks, but watch out for the rear mount.

I have buddy, who, to this day, wears a cup when he goes to a bar. Is that fair? Nope, fairness has little to do with his real no-rules world! That his tough. I've even heard that some women have, without medication, passed an actual human being out of their bodies though a tiny orifice. Now, that's tough!

So, what the hell am I saying? In my humble opinion, in MMA matches, chances are you are a "naturally" tough guy, or you won't get anywhere in the MMA competitive world. You basically know very early on that the rules of MMA require the "Tough" ingredient, amongst others. Just like a glass jaw doesn't bode well for boxers, or TKD guys are screwed if they are born legless. ( Apologies to all for that tasteless point).

Zoe, vee ave zee natural attributtes, yaa. Zen vee ave zee training, yaa. Und if everting vorks out, vee ave zee deesired rezult in a kompetator fore MMA.

It's just chemistry. Right ingredients for the current MMA world are different for the old MMA world. Who knows, in the future, civility may actually matter in the current religious-like zeal of the MMA world, which has gone from the infancy of learning, but is rapidly approaching the demeanor of pro boxing, and may sadly end up like pro wrestling, unless some genius quits calling down people outside their sporting arena. *** My shot at MMA industry vs MMA.

Go ahead. Train whatever way and whatever thang you want, and good luck with tough thing ( I said the same thing to George Chuvalo... worked for him).

Follow what works in your real world, and I'll follow what works in the real world, and hopefully, you never meet me in a dark alley. Besides the many belts around my waist, I have trained my natural ability of speed and could outrun you, anywhere, anytime (please tell me that you're not Carl Lewis, on the new "juice"! What happened to the skinny cheat we used to know)!

Old1o1
ps. Just kidding about the belts thing. Real Wing Chun practitioners have elastic waist in there pants. Belts as you know, mean very little, but do look awfully stylish.
Crap! Am I off topic again? Wing Chun is from China... that counts, right!
He started it ^^^^! I have taken my ritalin and will now continue to selfmoderate!

Nice rant.

I dont think supercrap does MA anyway so I wouldn't bother about responding to anything he posts.

Good idea wearing a cup to a bar... I shoulda thought of that, but I dont know what I'd do with my aluminum wrapped zucchini.