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Fatality Dragon
1/12/2003 12:27pm,
Patire claim to train a bodyguard, FBI, Militaries, and other peoples? That sounds fishy, a government agent, militaries, and executive protection service have very different way of thinking, working, and doing things. Also how could Patire learn martial arts, be in other countries to play mercenary, and learn how to be a executive protection service, law enforce, government agent, and militaries in so little time? I would say this man is full of trashes! I wouldn't bothers to learn whole course for free, but I would be happy to pay to expose this lying coward and show him what a true military and executive service is like! And I thinks all other people from those profession should do the same to him to make him crawl back into his hole!

"I would rather to admit I am a lousy student instead of saying I am the best student because once you thinks you are the best, you see no reason to continue learning"

jeffeisenberg
1/12/2003 2:00pm,
Tom is an excellent martial artist, and cdt is excellent for the context it was created for. My training and working experience with him was nothing but productive. I just would like to know if what I was told and believed was true or not...

bjj
1/14/2003 2:56pm,
no response from the "x student" ten to one odds the "x man" is tom patire himself,once again throwing up a smoke screen to hide from the questions at hand. like Jeff e. said just answer the questions

jeffeisenberg
1/14/2003 9:09pm,
The funny thing is when posts were first put up questioning him, he must have freaked out and sat down and typed a response like a madman! Problem was his ranting raised more questions and confusion! it was ridiculous how bad he contradicted himself with previous claims. One example is when asked to prove that he was contracted from an agency to train that agency , he posted on his web site a bunch of letters of
appreciation from various agencys as his response. But those letters came from
free 1 day trainings or from individuals that came to him and were asked to write the letters, individuals that were on their personal time. Nowhere do you see any official documentation to prove he is an official agency trainer contracted to train a whole agency. And to make it even worse, he's
badmouthing me to everyone he can that I am a nobody and not worthy to be in "his world",
yet I have the exact same letters from the exact same agencys and people that he posts as "credentials". So either I have just as good "credentials" as he does, or his are as worthless as mine. Your right, it's him behind the smoke screen, and he can't come out, due
to having no truth to present. All he can do is
resort to bad mouthing us on a personal level for questioning him on a professional level.
Also dave vanderhoff and matt giachetti are back there with him. dave or "van" as he's known on this sight is the guy who came to my party and ran to tom about it. He seems to think its ok for tom to put his name out there
and use him, and matt also went to tom about
it as well. matts the guy who tom claimed made 30 grand in 6 months with cdt. When I
confronted matt he admitted it wasn't true and then the ad dissapeared. matt thinks its ok to be part of an orginazation that uses his name in fraudulant ads. Infact, he wants to be part of it so bad he runs to tom everytime he can with something about me.

VAN
1/15/2003 11:12pm,
Jeff,

The true fact about this whole episode is that this has been going on long before I went to your BBQ. Before the BBQ I had not seen you or had any communication with you in quite a while. If you remember, I called you just to see how you were doing and you invited me to your BBQ. After the BBQ I mentioned in passing to a couple of people that I had seen you, that's it!!! I'm not into he said ,she said garbage and I refuse to be stuck in the middle of other people's arguments that don't include me. It's a shame that something like this occured at all!!! I enjoyed training with a close knit group of talented martial artists from many different schools and clubs at CDT but I have way too much to think about running my own center that I'm not interested in other people's negativity!!!! Mat Giachetti and I are good friends, we run our own facilities and do our own thing. Mat did nothing negative toward you or anyone and neither did I. As a matter of fact I just spoke to you on the phone last week and I spoke with someone else involved, not Tom Patire, but I won't mention his name, because he hasn't mentioned mine yet. I mentioned yours because you entered mine. When I spoke to you on the phone I said I didn't want to get stuck in the middle of any of this!! It's bad enough when real scam artists with no talent argue about others but it's a real shame when guys with real talent are made to look bad. I read your post that you felt Tom Patire was an excellent martial artist and that everything you did with him was productive, so...... What's the Point??? I don't know everything about every person I have ever trained with but if I see experience and knowledge being thrown my way I learn it!! I absorb what I like and toss what I don't like. I don't understand why all of this has to be aired in a public forum like this but it has happened that way. I still think the best way to handle all of this would have been to just discuss this between the parties involved. The questions could have been asked directly, I'm not sure if they were?? The only thing I know as fact is that all of this began while I was away from CDT and Jeff Eisenberg while opening a new location for myself. I came back and got thrown into the middle of all of this. I too have no idea who the X-Student is and I really don't care so lets all just move on. Alot of the people on this site have multiple names which means that if 1000 names are here there's probably only 500 actual!!! Out of the 500 actual maybe half have any real martial arts experience whether it is MMA or TMA. Many are kids passing judgement on a topic they know little about. Read the profiles of half of these guys and nothing else needs to be said!!! I think way too many professional martial artists work very hard to earn their living, I don't understand why some want to throw the living away on lawyers and such. Jeff you said I don't mind "Tom using my name out there",out where??? Well I care very much who uses my name and for what reason. You know I parted ways with Can Do, investors that gave me a Director's Job with an excellent salary to run their martial arts program, strictly because I couldn't stand what they stood for!!! Big Corporate martial arts!!! So I gave up the title, the promises, and the money to go back on my own. I'm here at U.S. Martial Arts doing what I feel I do best, teaching! I'm happy to do what I love to do while making my living. I'm active on this site under one name, and that can be verified!!(VAN) I make my statements using my name and only my name and no one will use my name without my permission for anything at anytime!!!
So X-Student, try contacting me before using my name in the future, when I'm done with this post I'll e-mail you to see if you respond. I have no problem with people that want to respond to comments they know I have made, I'll listen to other people's opinion but don't make comments on things I may have or could have said. Don't ASSUME, it makes an ASS out of U and ME!!!!! This should all just be laid to rest and this site should go back to going after guys that can give you CANCER by JUST TOUCHING YOU!!!!!!!!!!

Dave Vanderhoff (ALIAS - VAN)

The Wastrel
1/15/2003 11:29pm,
Dave,
That was nice. I'm glad I never responded in kind when you insulted me, because I understand your grief. I love to go after those cancer dudes...

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

VAN
1/16/2003 12:38am,
Okay, just to follow up!! I tried "THE X-STUDENT 3 times by e-mail and everytime the e-mail is refused because my server says there is no such e-mail address, X-Student, get in touch!!!

VAN

jeffeisenberg
1/16/2003 10:02am,
Dave,
You "happened" to called me "after quite some time" to see how I was doing? The few times we had spoke you led me to believe you were done with cdt. When I am nice enough to invite you to my house, you still act like thats the case. Then you "mention" it to Matt, and he runs to tom. Tom calls you and you run to him.
If your upset about all this, blame tom. He is the one that threw you into it by using you and your name on the net. And blame matt for going to him in the first place. Also, claims made in a public forum, should be dealt with in a public forum. Tom gets to say whatever he wants in public, people believe the claims and spend money with him, but you think he should be asked to substantiate it in private?
This is not he said/she said bs, thats what tom has turned it into by resorting to personal attacks rather then being truthful about questioning him professionally. Remember this started because tom sent out a mass e-mail about mike full of lies. Lies he had to make a public apology for. He did this simply because mike stated on a chat room that he
did not feel cdt was right response against a terrorist. Whats funny is after mike talked about what he thought the response should be, suddenly LRT is born. Funny how mad he was at mike for what he said, but then develops a course based on what mike said!
After I took mikes side, because friendship is
more important to me, I was told I did not make my quota and could not renew my certification. I am curious how you were able to renew yours after you told me you did not make yours either? Dave, your a smart guy,
and I don't know why you won't see things for what they are. But thats your choice, good luck
but remember, you were put into it because tom put you into it, just like he did with me and mike,and with ross and fred , etc... tom talks about loyalty, but he doesn't tell you it has to be blind and to his benefit only.

jeffeisenberg
1/16/2003 3:47pm,
Daves right, lets get this sight back to it's pourpose. Anyone ever heard of homdo?

jeffeisenberg
2/05/2003 1:25pm,
It's been a few weeks since tom, oops I mean
"x-student" went all over the net with his lying
personal attacks on Mike, Phil, and myself,
and after I responded with truth, there has been nothing further...on the net that is...
In response, tom for the 5th month in a row used his column in ma success ragazine to
yet again spin doctor . Many months ago many questions were asked, ALL of a professional nature based only on facts & statements put out their in print by tom. When questioned all he could do was attack the questioners on a personal level, while he
used the column to cover himself. Get the last 5 issues of ma ragazine & you can see that the issues addressed in the column coincide with the topics on the net. He takes the net topic, puts it in question form so his answer can be spun to justify himself and his on line
answer, or more often, his refusal to answer.
EXAMPLE: He has always claimed to be the grandmaster of all the homdo schools in the world, but when asked where all these schools were and who the instructors were, his answer was;" Well, there just guys teaching out of garages", and still would not name them. So in the Ma ragazine, he wants us to believe that "someone" questioned him
about arts taught in garages, and his answer
was; that he had "heard" of such a thing, but
"not what art". How could he not have heard of what art, when he said homdo was being taught in garages when asked where all his schools were? He goes on to say ;" the art name doesnt matter if the techniques are good", and that he has ; "never told the bad guy his arts name". I agree with these two points, but these points were not the issues,
the issues have always been directed at truthful,ethical advertising, and how come he wont back up and prove anything he has said in print. This is not about toms ability or the quality of the training, both are excellent. This is about wanting to know the truth on some issues, simply because consumers deserve
it, in fact there legally entitled to it. Unless I am attacked on a personal level, I am done with this. I will leave you all with a few questions. If tom answers them great, and if not great, because thats an answer as well:

1)Name the instructors that are world wide that you preside over as grandmaster of hom do?
2)On realfighting.com, you say you trained in homdo 3-4 times a week as a teenager-where?
with who?
3)When exactly did you train in the phillipenes?
4)What exactly is the federal clearence that you have?
5)What is your federal govt involvement that
you claim?
6)what govt agency is it you refer to that has approved cdt?
7) what court cases has cdt been inolved in?
you claim it has never lost, but has it ever won? Ever even been used as a defense?
Named in an action?
8)what law enforcement agencies or deptartments are you contracted to to train the whole agency?
9)Was the a&e tv special about itg the first course ever run?
10)How is it that one can trademark physical actions done prior to cdt's formulation. Actions found in many if not all martial arts?
11)Financial claims were made about instructors cdt sales, will you substantiate them?
12)The 600 cdt training centers, are they owned by you, or simply people authorized to teach a course?
13) Can these centers be contacted on their
success with offering the course?

jeffeisenberg
2/05/2003 1:31pm,
In conclusion there are many more questions,
and if need be they will come at a later time.
I hope they get answered, but my experience
is that they will not. I think they are fair questions, that deal with business and a professional level. If I am attacked on a personal level for asking them, well that
answers everything.

elipson
2/05/2003 1:50pm,
Resonable questions I think. I doubt we'll ever have the answers to them, but oh well.
I'm gonna try and find MA success and flip through to this guys column, sounds intersting.

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"
-Ghandi

Sheol
2/05/2003 3:24pm,
It's good that such question are aired. It would be better if someone actually tasked a top-notch private investigator to find the truth.

jeffeisenberg
2/05/2003 4:42pm,
He covers himself well. His down pat answer is that it's all classified, but he doesn't realize how ridiculous it sounds for someone to tell
you a bit of classified info and then use the fact that it's "classified" to avoid any scrutiny.
The other thing is he states little tid bits of truth and then lets people draw false assumptions.
EXAMPLE; "I train theFBI" He knows people will assume he means he was contracted by them and brought in to train the whole agency
in an official capacity, when really an FBI agent might of come to him alone on his own time and taken a course. Or a claim of training a law enforcement agency is made, but it is a free 1 day training along with other trainers that is done in a volluntary mannor. And while that is comendable, its not clear in the claims made. If someone questions it, the easy out is "I did not mean that, you assumed it".
But his best defense,(found in one of his ma ragazine articles), is that the people questioning him,(though he calls being asked to prove his claims bad mouthing him), are jealous of him because he is a "name" in the arts.

The Wastrel
2/05/2003 7:16pm,
Ask him what the level of classification is. If it's NOFORN, then you're gold!

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Edited by - The Wastrel on February 05 2003 18:17:25

elipson
2/06/2003 12:40am,
Classified? Didnt frank Dux try that bullshit???

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"
-Ghandi