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bunyip
8/08/2005 12:12am,
wait, I missed the part when you challenged a teacher there to a fight to prove that your skills are greater..what page was that on?

Perhaps you should reread the thread. You seem to have missed the point, a recurring theme in your posts.

After that, read the NorCal Throwdown II thread.

After that, read the current NorCal Throwdown thread.

Steel Yo Yo
8/08/2005 2:48pm,
Perhaps you should reread the thread. You seem to have missed the point, a recurring theme in your posts.

After that, read the NorCal Throwdown II thread.

After that, read the current NorCal Throwdown thread.

I read it all, you seem to be saying that the people at that school's style is worthless, and that they charge money for it. I missed the part where you put your skills to the test against their skilled practioners. I'll check out those other threads later.

ChrisOdell
8/11/2005 1:27pm,
So I was talking to my wife after reading this thread and I remembered that she mention going to some school that wanted an insane amount of $ to train her.

She told me the whole story this time and it was nearly identical to bunnyyip's, only they wanted 10,000 from her for a year of training!!!!! These guys must be taken out of the MA scene, or at least out of my town! Jerks.

PunkBoy
8/14/2005 11:24pm,
Wow, I wish I read this thread before. What an amazing story!

BigDickRich
8/15/2005 12:07am,
I read it all, you seem to be saying that the people at that school's style is worthless, and that they charge money for it. I missed the part where you put your skills to the test against their skilled practioners. I'll check out those other threads later.

I was wondering the same thing. But, nonetheless, bunyip is actually a good guy whom I've met, personally. While I don't necessaritly agree with the point of views stated here, I try to keep it in mind when I train.

I believe that one can train and be effective without sparring. There is a difference between the art and the defense portions of a system. If sparring was so ideal, then why do we all poke fun at TKD people. We even hold boxing to a high regard. But, practitioners aren't necessarily good street fighters.

But, I think MMA, BJJ, TKD, Kenpo/Bok-Fu, JKD and all that crap is absolute bullshit when you got to get down and fight. It all falls to **** when you are getting pounded by multiple attackers or jumped from behind. That's the brutal, honest truth. Defend it all you want but we all practice bullshido.

If you want to be in the baddest martial art in the world, go get in your car or on the buss or walk to that neighborhood near you and start fighting. Nothing is more true to form than fighting for your life. Because in the dojo, none of us fight like that.

And hey, it's free and there are no contracts or pushy sales people.

JohnnyCache
8/15/2005 2:27am,
I was wondering the same thing. But, nonetheless, bunyip is actually a good guy whom I've met, personally. While I don't necessaritly agree with the point of views stated here, I try to keep it in mind when I train.

I believe that one can train and be effective without sparring. There is a difference between the art and the defense portions of a system. If sparring was so ideal, then why do we all poke fun at TKD people. We even hold boxing to a high regard. But, practitioners aren't necessarily good street fighters.

But, I think MMA, BJJ, TKD, Kenpo/Bok-Fu, JKD and all that crap is absolute bullshit when you got to get down and fight. It all falls to **** when you are getting pounded by multiple attackers or jumped from behind. That's the brutal, honest truth. Defend it all you want but we all practice bullshido.

If you want to be in the baddest martial art in the world, go get in your car or on the buss or walk to that neighborhood near you and start fighting. Nothing is more true to form than fighting for your life. Because in the dojo, none of us fight like that.

And hey, it's free and there are no contracts or pushy sales people.

Never heard that before.

Do you honestly believe, in your heart, that every possible avenue of martial training is helpless in the face of "really fighting?"

That argument is trite, and aging badly.

BigDickRich
8/15/2005 4:39am,
Trite? Sure, and therefore must contain some modicum of truth. Maybe just not the truth you believe in.

To get to the point, no person really wants to believe that they are not learning the be-all-end-all art or style or whatever. We all believe that there is some way all schools should be run or what is too much money or what art is better or what way to train is better. It's easy to poke fun at and make light of other styles and schools. But each school can learn from the others.

Everyone gives me crap for going to West Wind. Good. It seems to me that everyone wants me to prove how good (or terrible) the school is. Yet, without knowing this, the school is ripped by outsiders who can really only base their opinions on the musings of others. That's what this thread is about. This whole site is everyone hating on everybody else.

I've busted my ass for too many years to let someone belittle what I do because it doesn't suit thier needs. Are there problems in the school? **** yes. I wish I had the power to fix them. Of course, your school does, too. They may be little problems like old equipment or being late on the phone bill. My school seems to have problems in several areas. It doesn't concern me too much. My school is nearly 40 years old. I trust it will be around for a few more years. Even if it's in someone's tool shed.

I don't discount anybody's art. Does it really "work"? That's up to you. I respect what you do because you have a passion for it and it and you enjoy it. I was at the throwdown for an hour or so and learned a lot from just standing there. I might learn more next time by actually rolling. I gained a greater respect for the people there. They like what they do. And they're having fun. Throwdowns are the most redeeming part of this site. It sure beats the divisiveness lingering in the threads.

wildwills
8/17/2005 8:16am,
Best line ever: My REAL school was about to start.

Ditto.

bunyip
8/18/2005 2:41am,
This is going to be short because I'm about to go to sleep, and because these points have been addressed hundreds and hundreds of times already. You're not bringing any new arguments to the table that we aren't seriously sick of hearing and dismissing.


I believe that one can train and be effective without sparring. There is a difference between the art and the defense portions of a system.


No, and no. Without exception, every single boxing, wrestling, and Muay Thai school is heavily sparring-oriented because practicing fighting is how you become a good fighter.



If sparring was so ideal, then why do we all poke fun at TKD people. We even hold boxing to a high regard. But, practitioners aren't necessarily good street fighters.


We poke fun at TKD people who spar with ridiculously restrictive point-sparring rules. There are exceptions, such as ONE OF THE MODERATORS ON THIS FORUM. Boxing is held in high regard because it is a goddamn effective martial art. A good boxer would be a seriously good street fighter. If you think otherwise, you're fooling yourself.



But, I think MMA, BJJ, TKD, Kenpo/Bok-Fu, JKD and all that crap is absolute bullshit when you got to get down and fight. It all falls to **** when you are getting pounded by multiple attackers or jumped from behind.

Everyone here is so sick of this argument. How is your non-sparring art that can't even defend itself against a single fighter under restrictive rules suddenly going to become useful in a multiple attacker situation?


Nothing is more true to form than fighting for your life. Because in the dojo, none of us fight like that.

But hard sparring is a whole hell of lot closer than doing forms.

Now read these articles: Street vs. Sport (http://www.straightblastgym.com/street.htm)

BigDickRich
8/18/2005 6:09am,
I'm getting quite tired of the argument as well. It's a vicious circle that is as great as the Mac vs. PC debates. We can make any argument and nobody's mind really changes too much. With me you're sorta preaching to the choir. I agree that more sparring and realistic traing is effective. But it's not everything. And I kinda enjoy playing devil's advocate. I just wish I was more convincing.

My final argument is as follows. Training for endurance can have a greater effect than not training at all. This goes without saying. I am not saying that I won't have my ass handed to me by a well trained martial artist that has trained and sparred, but my odds are much greater than if I just sat on my couch all day.

The things I read from bunyip's link support the idea. Of course they all say you'd be even better if you sparred.

In closing, it's been a hoot arguing with you guys, but nothing is accomplished by me writing drunken posts at 4am. However, there was a great question posed. Why hasn't anyone challenged any of the West Wind instructors to a fight if they teach bullshido and can't fight? As far as I am concerned, this whole thread is moot until that is done. I'd quit that place immediately if that happened.

I'm done with this thread.

bunyip
8/19/2005 3:13am,
Why hasn't anyone challenged any of the West Wind instructors to a fight if they teach bullshido and can't fight?

1) Teaching bullshido and lack of fighting ability are not synonymous. I'm not saying the teachers can't fight, I'm saying their students can't fight. And I'm saying that's the teachers' fault.

2) I have less than three years of martial arts experience. I am open for a friendly sparring session with a West Wind student of comparable experience any time you can set one up. In fact, the more students, the better. Can you get permission for me to come to a group class and spar a bunch of the students? I'd like to bring a video camera, too, please.

3) I specifically requested that you come and spar at the throwdown. I requested that you bring friends from West Wind to come and spar at the throwdown. Multiple flyers on multiple occations for this and past throwdowns have been posted outside West Wind, but they're taken down by the next morning, and often within a couple hours.

FIND ME SOME WEST WIND STUDENTS WHO WILL FIGHT and I will set it up.

DeviantBK
8/20/2006 11:48pm,
1) Teaching bullshido and lack of fighting ability are not synonymous. I'm not saying the teachers can't fight, I'm saying their students can't fight. And I'm saying that's the teachers' fault.

2) I have less than three years of martial arts experience. I am open for a friendly sparring session with a West Wind student of comparable experience any time you can set one up. In fact, the more students, the better. Can you get permission for me to come to a group class and spar a bunch of the students? I'd like to bring a video camera, too, please.

3) I specifically requested that you come and spar at the throwdown. I requested that you bring friends from West Wind to come and spar at the throwdown. Multiple flyers on multiple occations for this and past throwdowns have been posted outside West Wind, but they're taken down by the next morning, and often within a couple hours.

FIND ME SOME WEST WIND STUDENTS WHO WILL FIGHT and I will set it up.

Seriously... i dont think any of the teachers will answer the CHALLENGE

a) because they are scared
b) because they think they dont have to prove to you (aka they are scared)
c) they think the'll hurt you because they use their skills as killing techniques (aka they are scared)

trust me... ive trained their and almost gotten my black belt... they use to be good... but i dont know if there are any good teachers anymore... i use to have top teachers and i left with horrible knockoffs... id get different teachers a week... them and their so called private lessons... they dont even have open tourneys its all within the school.... sad really...

ggboxer
1/27/2007 4:42am,
As a former student of West Wind, I can vouch for the accuracy of Bunyip's assertions, as well as how full of **** this school is. Of course, I was a student there when I was 10 -11, the early 90's. The very fact that a kid like me was a student there along with a bunch of other kids attests to how useless this place is for adults (anyone 16 + or so) who wants to learn to fight. And hey, what is the point of joining a martial arts organization anyway? To get a goofy looking pajama suit? A colored belt? a bunch of sleeve patches? No, you fucking want to learn how to fight and have an edge over some drunken asshole who takes a swing at you in a bar, or some thugged out **** on the street who grabs you by the collar and demands your wallet. I was attending the classes there for well over a year (how the hell did my parents afford it?). I got into plenty of fist fights between the ages of 10 and 15. I can't recall how anything I ever did there could have applied to the school yard fights I got into even if I had tried to use it. As best as I can recall, there were group classes where rows and rows of us got into horse stances and stuck out one arm at a time when the teacher yelled/kiaided or whatever—in other words, alot of synchronized punching and kicking motions. There was one-on-one or small group instruction as well during my weekly trips there, spent doing the choreographed kata stuff. Now of course, I was a young kid so I didn't give a **** anyway, I was just marking time until I could get home and watch cartoons. But I definetely recall a bunch of middle aged guys doing these stupid katas with the idea that they were gaining some sort of fighting skills. Well, as this sight and these threads constantly reiterate, and as my own street fighting experiences tell me, doing a bunch of martial arts dances like they teach you there won't do ****, if it did why didn't a year's worth of lessons every come up at all in all the fights I got into? Heavy sparring is the essential part of training, how the hell can boxers and football players do their thing if they don't practice it in situations that mirror a game or fight? Bruce Lee would have fucking shut this place down with a challenge match in the old days when he was in Oakland. Read Tao of Jeet Kune Do and pay attention to the fact he constantly repeats: you can't predict or prepare for a fight with a buch of stupid prepared game plans, which is what Bok Fu teaches.

PizDoff
1/27/2007 11:09pm,
Interesting post. Feel free to make a quick intro about yourself in our 'Newbie' forum.
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=64

Please use paragraphs and spacing for easier reading.

YodaKiMaster
1/28/2007 7:03am,
This is the best thread I've read on the forum so far. Dude you are awesome for doing this. There are a lot of jerks and idiots on bullshido but there are quite a few awesome people too. There's obviously a lot to learn here.
The links to their website don't work anymore. I did a search for West Wind/ Bok Fu on Yahoo where the heck did they go? Dude you closed the friggin school lol
I couldn't believe what I was reading,how can such a place exist in our day and age and who the hell would be stupid enough to fall prey to their cultish tactics...it blows my mind. All those assholes should be lined up in a ditch and hosed down with an AK 47, it makes me so angry that someone would manipulate, brainwash and take advantage of sheeple...ahem I mean people like that.How can they sleep at night? And dude...I could see this kind of crap going on back in the 60's when people were still ignorant about the martial arts, but today?

Bok Fu is supposed to be a Shaolin style and it's translated Way of the White Tiger and it has something to do with Kenpo too. I remember Keith Hackney the White Tiger Kenpo stylist who fought in the UFC his nick was Giant Killer because he beat the crap out of a 600 pound sumo wrestler. He ended up fighting Royce Gracie and he gave Royce a harder time than the other competitors, staying on his feet, resisting the takedown and punchin Royce in the face like 11 times. My point? You can be good even in a traditional style if you train the right way, get in top shape, and you actually FIGHT full contact. Like it would kill the McDojos to have at least a separate full contact class for those who want it. But noooo... we get good with forms only.
The sad truth however is that people prefer a delusion to the truth. Forms sell. A karate instructor was asked "How many real fighters do you have at your school?" He said "None.I tried teaching them the real stuff but they hated it, especially the parents, so I went along" Go figure.

kwoww
1/28/2007 6:33pm,
lol @ the west wind fighting/losing stance