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W. Rabbit
10/04/2017 6:40pm,
I agree that this is a very poorly worded bill. That said, I have trouble understanding why anyone would need a bump stock for anything other than the novelty of them at the range or nefarious purposes. I do not believe private citizens need full auto-fire weapons. Besides increasing rate of fire, bump stocks do little more than inhibit accuracy.

On NJ radio tonight, gun shop owners have been calling in to radio stations saying nobody needs them except for the battlefield. That's where the issue is...there are plenty of people in the US who want automatic weapons. Most of them are not murderers...but any of them might be planning on it.

But...who needs to buy them at all? Anybody with a 3D printer can make one. That goes for the whole fucking gun, by the way. Anybody can make one.

Devil
10/04/2017 7:00pm,
On NJ radio tonight, gun shop owners have been calling in to radio stations saying nobody needs them except for the battlefield. That's where the issue is...there are plenty of people in the US who want automatic weapons. Most of them are not murderers...but any of them might be planning on it.

But...who needs to buy them at all? Anybody with a 3D printer can make one. That goes for the whole fucking gun, by the way. Anybody can make one.

Nobody on a battlefield needs a bump fire stock either.

Good luck printing a rifled barrel.

hungryjoe
10/04/2017 9:11pm,
But...who needs to buy them at all? Anybody with a 3D printer can make one. That goes for the whole fucking gun, by the way. Anybody can make one.

No, they can't.

W. Rabbit
10/04/2017 11:30pm,
No, they can't.

If by "can't" you mean according to the government, yes. If you mean can't print them, no. The plans for doing so are already public domain.

Thousands of printers are already out in the market specifically designed to build AR-15s stock to barrel. The process takes less than 3 hours. The printers required to do this cost less than $300.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Distributed

http://www.wired.co.uk/article/defcad-gun-design-taken-down


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xa87kudAVFs

W. Rabbit
10/04/2017 11:37pm,
Nobody on a battlefield needs a bump fire stock either.

Good luck printing a rifled barrel.

You can print an unregistered AR-15 in a few hours. It's already been done.

BKR
10/04/2017 11:44pm,
If by "can't" you mean according to the government, yes. If you mean can't print them, no. The plans for doing so are already public domain.

Thousands of printers are already out in the market specifically designed to build AR-15s stock to barrel. The process takes less than 3 hours. The printers required to do this cost less than $300.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Distributed

http://www.wired.co.uk/article/defcad-gun-design-taken-down


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xa87kudAVFs

A rifled barrel? And all the springs and pins and other parts that go into putting together the lower and upper of an AR-15 oh and the bolt and all the other stuff?

W. Rabbit
10/04/2017 11:47pm,
A rifled barrel? And all the springs and pins and other parts that go into putting together the lower and upper of an AR-15 oh and the bolt and all the other stuff?

Watch the whole video on how it's done. I found it hard to believe too. I get that most people aren't aware this is possible...but seeing is believing. This video is old, but this guy got shut down by the government fast when he first started selling these and posting schematics for various parts.

The US State Department shut him down on the grounds of national security trumping his 1st and 2nd Amendment rights. He is currently appealing to the USSC for the right to sell his gear and publish schematics.

What's difficult about rifling a barrel? These customized printers are essentially milling robots, they can cut metal and plastic to precise specifications...the same way big industrial robots do it. This one in particular creates a full receiver with practically no expertise required. Think about that.

I didn't think it was possible to build a shotgun out of household parts, but then I saw a demo of one up close. The genie is out of the bottle.

Here's someone who got the Ghost Gun CNC system, and off he went, only by this time (2015) the price of the printer increased by 600%. The actual schematics for parts are already out on the web.

I Made an Untraceable AR-15 ‘Ghost Gun’ in My Office—and It Was Easy: https://www.wired.com/2015/06/i-made-an-untraceable-ar-15-ghost-gun/

This is my ghost gun. To quote the rifleman’s creed, there are many like it, but this one is mine. It’s called a “ghost gun”—a term popularized by gun control advocates but increasingly adopted by gun lovers too—because it’s an untraceable semiautomatic rifle with no serial number, existing beyond law enforcement’s knowledge and control. And if I feel a strangely personal connection to this lethal, libertarian weapon, it’s because I made it myself, in a back room of WIRED’s downtown San Francisco office on a cloudy afternoon.

I did this mostly alone. I have virtually no technical understanding of firearms and a Cro-Magnon man’s mastery of power tools. Still, I made a fully metal, functional, and accurate AR-15. To be specific, I made the rifle’s lower receiver; that’s the body of the gun, the only part that US law defines and regulates as a “firearm.” All I needed for my entirely legal DIY gunsmithing project was about six hours, a 12-year-old’s understanding of computer software, an $80 chunk of aluminum, and a nearly featureless black 1-cubic-foot desktop milling machine called the Ghost Gunner.

submessenger
10/04/2017 11:54pm,
You can print an unregistered AR-15 in a few hours. It's already been done.

You're missing the point. Good luck firing a 50,000+ psi round through reconstituted plastic. Lowers and stocks and grips, sure. But, when you get to the upper receiver and barrel, you need something a little beefier. The steel printing machines are still a nascent field, and even if you logistically could accomplish these parts, I wouldn't want to become the test case for printed over forged.

Besides, the only people who care HOW the gun was manufactured are the Brady nuts.

BKR
10/04/2017 11:56pm,
Watch the whole video on how it's done. I found it hard to believe too. I get that most people aren't aware this is possible...but seeing is believing. This video is old, but this guy got shut down by the government.

The US State Department shut him down on the grounds of national security trumping his 1st and 2nd Amendment rights. Heis currently appealing to the USSC for the right to sell his gear and publish schematics.

What's difficult about rifling a barrel? These customized printers are essentially milling robots, they can cut metal and plastic to precise specifications...the same way big industrial robots do it. This one in particular creates a full receiver with practically no expertise required. Think about that.

I didn't think it was possible to build a shotgun out of household parts, but then I saw a demo of one up close. The genie is out of the bottle.

Here's someone who got the Ghost Gun CNC system, and off he went, only by this time (2015) the price of the printer increased by 600%. The actual schematics for parts are already out on the web.

I watched the whole thing I saw no such thing.

The only thing I saw were lowers and of all things a bump fire stock.

W. Rabbit
10/04/2017 11:59pm,
If you want proof of concept for 3D printed rifled barrel, that was first engineered via 3D printer 4 years ago in Wisconsin. I'm sure DefDist has perfected it...but we'll have to wait for the Supreme Court to weigh in.

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/156304-the-25-lulz-liberator-the-first-3d-printed-gun-with-a-rifled-barrel


Joe actually went one step further and added rifling to his barrel. Without rifling, Wilson’s Liberator isn’t accurate beyond a few feet, making it rather useless as a weapon — with rifling, the Lulz Liberator might be one step closer to being a functional, dangerous firearm. We say “might,” because Joe hasn’t provided any details that confirm that the plastic rifling is actually working as intended — and for now, with the US Department of State breathing down DefDist’s neck for releasing the Liberator’s CAD files, and lawmakers scrambling to plug the 3D-printed hole, Joe doesn’t have any immediate plans to share the Lulz Liberator CAD files, so no one can replicate his work.

Still, there you have it: The first rifled, plastic 3D gun has been produced — and it costs just $25. Rather than fearing that your life might be ended by someone busting a plastic cap in your ass, though, the much larger concern is that we’re now much closer to governments mandating that 3D printers contain DRM that prevents you from printing guns in the first place.

W. Rabbit
10/05/2017 12:06am,
You're missing the point. Good luck firing a 50,000+ psi round through reconstituted plastic. Lowers and stocks and grips, sure. But, when you get to the upper receiver and barrel, you need something a little beefier. The steel printing machines are still a nascent field, and even if you logistically could accomplish these parts, I wouldn't want to become the test case for printed over forged.


The key point here is that home 3D printing is not limited to plastic for a while now and these are not hobbyists...Defense Distributed has had a fully functional lab for developing 3D metal weapon printing for years now...the only thing holding them back from selling the devices and schematics for all of it is the US State Department.

The Ghost Gun machines build a fully metal lower receiver. The printers can also make fully functional magazines..all the other parts are simpler and trivial to make. The rifled barrel has probably been perfected by Defense Distributed by now (since the proof of concept is 4 years old), but they're under federal bootheel so you won't hear about it from them...based on the last time they went public, and people lost their minds.

The US government is extremely worried about this tech becoming cheaper and mainstream. I haven't seen them stomp down on entrepreneurs like this since they tried to shut down Phil Zimmerman's crypto as "munitions". Pretty soon the ability to print untraceable weapons at home will be so cheap and easy your kids could do it.

I'm sure you made your own ammunition before...it's fun, right? This is the next generation of that.

The $1,200 Machine That Lets Anyone Make a Metal Gun at Home: https://www.wired.com/2014/10/cody-wilson-ghost-gunner/

https://assets.wired.com/photos/w_582/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/metal-gun-inline.jpg

submessenger
10/05/2017 12:12am,
The Ghost Gun machines build a fully metal receiver. The printers can also make magazines. All the other parts are trivial to make.

https://www.wired.com/2014/10/cody-wilson-ghost-gunner/

Those aren't printed. They are CNC milled, a technique which has been used for DECADES. You're all over the place, here. The 8 shots from the plastic gun weren't even successive rounds. That is a one-time-use gun, at best. You can't even take it to the range to practice with, lest it melt and probably injure you and the people in the lanes on either side of you.

W. Rabbit
10/05/2017 12:31am,
I watched the whole thing I saw no such thing.

The only thing I saw were lowers and of all things a bump fire stock.

The metal receiver was the hardest part to DIY until 2013, but now it's automated and costs only hundreds of dollars (it used to cost tens of thousands). You can print or mill all the other parts using the exact same machines using different schematics (or just order them online).

The rifled barrel was first 3D printed in plastic in 2004, but with the same Defense Distributed tech used in the Ghost Gunner, it can easily done with metal and almost any shape down to micrometer precision.

You just need a program and the right robot, which they've had half a decade to perfect since their government gag order.

W. Rabbit
10/05/2017 12:32am,
Those aren't printed. They are CNC milled, a technique which has been used for DECADES. You're all over the place, here. The 8 shots from the plastic gun weren't even successive rounds. That is a one-time-use gun, at best. You can't even take it to the range to practice with, lest it melt and probably injure you and the people in the lanes on either side of you.

Sorry, I'm using "3D printer" to include these cheap, DIY robotic CNC mills, which the Ghost Gunner is, a 1 cubic foot personal CNC that spits out a metal AR-15 receiver. Keep in mind Defense Distributed has many, many other schematics, and the Ghost Gunner tech can mill practically anything it's programmed to, very quickly. If you can make a metal receiver in minutes, you can make anything else.

Yeah, I know milling metal has been around for quite some time...but the ability to upload a schematic and spit out practically any metal or plastic part, including an AR-15 receiver, is pretty cutting edge.

Like I said, even if you think it's not practical you'll have to explain why the US government went apeshit to make it go away, requiring a Supreme Court challenge by the creators of little black boxes that spit out AR-15 parts..metal or plastic.

Remember, somebody said can't print AR-15s...but you can, and it's only getting cheaper and faster, hence the State Department smack down.

submessenger
10/05/2017 12:35am,
The key point here is that home 3D printing is not limited to plastic for a while now and these are not hobbyists...Defense Distributed has had a fully functional lab for developing 3D metal weapon printing for years now...the only thing holding them back from selling the devices and schematics for all of it is the US State Department.

The Ghost Gun machines build a fully metal lower receiver. The printers can also make fully functional magazines..all the other parts are simpler and trivial to make. The rifled barrel has probably been perfected by Defense Distributed by now (since the proof of concept is 4 years old), but they're under federal bootheel so you won't hear about it from them...based on the last time they went public, and people lost their minds.

The US government is extremely worried about this tech becoming cheaper and mainstream. I haven't seen them stomp down on entrepreneurs like this since they tried to shut down Phil Zimmerman's crypto as "munitions". Pretty soon the ability to print untraceable weapons at home will be so cheap and easy your kids could do it.

I'm sure you made your own ammunition before...it's fun, right? This is the next generation of that.

The $1,200 Machine That Lets Anyone Make a Metal Gun at Home: https://www.wired.com/2014/10/cody-wilson-ghost-gunner/

https://assets.wired.com/photos/w_582/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/metal-gun-inline.jpg

Don't get me wrong, I totally geek out on the tech aspects, and the frontier-ism, and the little-L libertarian in me loves the idea of an off-the-books weapon.

Dan Bernstein is one of my heroes, btw.

W. Rabbit
10/05/2017 12:48am,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_printed_firearms

Looks like the DefDist AR-15 receiver is pretty durable for a DIY project.


Defense Distributed has also designed a 3D printable AR-15 type rifle lower receiver (capable of lasting more than 650 rounds) and a variety of magazines, including ones for AK-47

Hey now look at this...this should answer BKR's question...yes, even all the littlest, most delicate bits of any firearm can be 3D printed in metal.

Solid Concepts out of Texas has made a fully functional M1911 with 3D printed parts. Now, this was NOT CHEAP or DIY, but that will change with time.

Texas company makes metal gun with 3-D printer: http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/08/tech/innovation/3d-printed-metal-gun/index.html


A Texas company says it has made the first metal gun using a 3-D printer, taking the debate over people's emerging ability to create their own firearms to a new level.
Solid Concepts, a specialty manufacturing company, said in a blog post it has fired more than 50 rounds from the handgun, even hitting a few bull's-eyes at more than 30 yards.

https://imgur.com/GmQn3s6.jpg