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kimjonghng
9/11/2017 6:23am,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKEoz5a5sj8&t=1s

saw this earlier last night and wondered if someone more familiar with Yiquan could explain this to me. Looks more like light free fighting to me. Isnt this a style thats derived from Taiji, Bagua, Xing yi and LHBF?

Ded Moroz
9/11/2017 9:50am,
This looks like pretty standard Xingyi/Yiquan moving push hands stuff. I've never personally trained Yiquan as it doesn't seem real popular in the U.S.

Yiquan is an offshoot of Xingyiquan which is why you see some similarities. It's founder, Wang Xiangzhai stripped out the Xingyi forms and sets and built the style around standing/breathing exercies, with a heavy dose of moving push-hands and sparring drills. It was always a sparring-centric system, and the Japanese branch, Taikiken has close ties to Kyokushin Karate.

kimjonghng
9/11/2017 10:31am,
This looks like pretty standard Xingyi/Yiquan moving push hands stuff. I've never personally trained Yiquan as it doesn't seem real popular in the U.S.

Yiquan is an offshoot of Xingyiquan which is why you see some similarities. It's founder, Wang Xiangzhai stripped out the Xingyi forms and sets and built the style around standing/breathing exercies, with a heavy dose of moving push-hands and sparring drills. It was always a sparring-centric system, and the Japanese branch, Taikiken has close ties to Kyokushin Karate.

Doesn't sound like it's too bad a system to learn. So it's got ties to Kyokushin? Can't be much in the way of BS then.

I've seen claims its got links to Taiji, Bagua and Liuhebafa as well as Xingyi, mostly due to what the founder studied. There seems to be some reasonbable throws/Shuai I can see in their other videos.

Ded Moroz
9/11/2017 11:26am,
One of Oyama's colleagues, Kenichi Sawai went to China to study with Wang and ended up taking up Yiquan full time. In Japan it's called Taikiken and is closely tied to Knockdown Karate as a result of the relationship between Sawai and Oyama

Wang Xiangzhai was a disciple of the famous Xingyiquan teacher Guo Yunshen and spent years with him before striking out on his own. I've never heard of him studying Shuai Jiao, but he's from Heibei Province which was a hot spot for wrestling so it's certainly possible.

kimjonghng
9/11/2017 2:14pm,
One of Oyama's colleagues, Kenichi Sawai went to China to study with Wang and ended up taking up Yiquan full time. In Japan it's called Taikiken and is closely tied to Knockdown Karate as a result of the relationship between Sawai and Oyama

Wang Xiangzhai was a disciple of the famous Xingyiquan teacher Guo Yunshen and spent years with him before striking out on his own. I've never heard of him studying Shuai Jiao, but he's from Heibei Province which was a hot spot for wrestling so it's certainly possible.

Shuai has been used collectively to refer to wrestling and throws in general as far as I can tell, and also as a style itself. Im seeing some decent throws so at least its throwing techniques seem good.

Not sure about the Bagua or Liuhebafa connection but Im less familiar with the latter style and well, bagua doesnt look much like bagua to me when its not circle walking

Ded Moroz
9/11/2017 2:34pm,
Are you looking to start Yiquan? I don't think I've ever met anyone who trained in it.

kimjonghng
9/11/2017 2:52pm,
Are you looking to start Yiquan? I don't think I've ever met anyone who trained in it.

Im more curious about the mechanics of the style. For something that's derived from the internal styles it seems to be very sparring and application focused compared to anything I've managed to experience first hand. Perhaps I'll look more at their material or see if theres any seminars on in my area to get a taster for myself.

Frankly I've seen too many so called internal stylists fight who I've come to lose respect for because they dont train with resistence or against realistic attacks. This looks a lot more applicable to fighting.

The channel on youtube in question has a website that mentions they do regular retreats and training weeks/weekends around europe and the UK, so I might go roll up. I cant imagine anything tied to kyokushin being utterly shite either.

Ded Moroz
9/11/2017 4:07pm,
Frankly I've seen too many so called internal stylists fight who I've come to lose respect for because they dont train with resistence or against realistic attacks. This looks a lot more applicable to fighting.


That makes total sense. Look for clubs that are rooted in the Taiwanese Tang Shou Tao school. They were sort of the Taiwanese version of Kyokushin but used Xingyiquan (Hebei Style) and Baguazhang (Gao) instead of Karate. They were big in the Kuoshu/Leitai scene in Taiwan and sparring was a big part of their curriculum. There are several notable individuals like Luo Dexiu and his Yizong organization that came out of it. I trained at a former TST school for several years and sparring was a regular part of the classes

Another good source would be Tim Cartmell (He trained with Luo for years). He's got a few guys in the UK and and the EU

kimjonghng
9/14/2017 4:32am,
So I've just seen some more footage of it and if its truly a distilation of the internal styles then how come this looks actually significantly more fight applicable?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vVKJBtitSE



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1Rn-lkPzk0

I'd love to get a chance to learn from or throw down with some of these guys. They had me curious at a formless kung fu style

DCS
9/14/2017 4:42am,
So I've just seen some more footage of it and if its truly a distilation of the internal styles then how come this looks actually significantly more fight applicable?
Because a style being internal or external has little relationship with applicability.

kimjonghng
9/14/2017 5:02am,
Because a style being internal or external has little relationship with applicability.

Are we now getting into the discussion on the nature of division between the two? I just find it interesting it bares such limited resemblence to typical internal training I've seen or the typical bagua fight footage you can find on youtube. Frankly, this looks pretty good

Christmas Spirit
9/14/2017 6:43am,
Are we now getting into the discussion on the nature of division between the two? I just find it interesting it bares such limited resemblence to typical internal training I've seen or the typical bagua fight footage you can find on youtube. Frankly, this looks pretty good

There is no real difference except internal styles are usually "internal" to avoid sparring and contact.

kimjonghng
9/14/2017 8:34am,
There is no real difference except internal styles are usually "internal" to avoid sparring and contact.

I always thought the internal guys arguement was based on the idea they develop 'relaxed power' that is 'fully body' (because apparently the key to external styles dont benefit from relaxation). Anyway who even figured good punching isnt a full body movement.

BKR
9/14/2017 10:11am,
I always thought the internal guys arguement was based on the idea they develop 'relaxed power' that is 'fully body' (because apparently the key to external styles dont benefit from relaxation). Anyway who even figured good punching isnt a full body movement.

LOLOLLOL...

Dude, train more and harder instead of spending day(s) off watching videos...you will develop that full body/relaxed power stuff, if you train properly.

It's all the same, mechanics of human body.

kimjonghng
9/14/2017 11:26am,
LOLOLLOL...

Dude, train more and harder instead of spending day(s) off watching videos...you will develop that full body/relaxed power stuff, if you train properly.

It's all the same, mechanics of human body.

Just curious about how others tackle the same issue (a weakness of mine I admit)

These guys look like they at least spar in a live enough way to be respect worthy.

And what I was saying about the relaxed body power (which is a common thing to all martial arts) is I hear it often brought up by internalists/traditionalists but cannot see how they idea is exclusive, in this case, this internal style looks very little like it would meet the classification of one, then again, theres debate on the distinction anyway if Im correct right?

BKR
9/14/2017 12:10pm,
Just curious about how others tackle the same issue (a weakness of mine I admit)

These guys look like they at least spar in a live enough way to be respect worthy.

And what I was saying about the relaxed body power (which is a common thing to all martial arts) is I hear it often brought up by internalists/traditionalists but cannot see how they idea is exclusive, in this case, this internal style looks very little like it would meet the classification of one, then again, theres debate on the distinction anyway if Im correct right?

Internal/external is a long-term debate, predates the internet, believe it or not.

Having an open and curious mind is good, and you do.

The idea isn't exclusive to them, they just have lots of exercises to (allegedly) develop "internal power".

"Internal power" is proper body mechanics/alignment/timing/mental/emotional composure, etc.

Internal/external is a false dichotomy, IMO.