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BKR
9/11/2017 10:24am,
It's not a matter of space, it's a matter of storage. Neither solar or wind provide energy on demand, and electricity can not currently be stored or transmitted long enough distances efficiently. If you want zero emission electricity, nuclear is the only game in town, and the people who are clamoring for reduced emissions loudest are opposed to nuclear for non-scientific reasons. As mentioned above, breeder plant technology is ancient, and should have been in place 30-40 years ago, at the latest.

Yep...the breeder reactor tech (for those who won't do a search) re-uses spent nuclear fuel/waste, reducing volume, and also toxicity and half-life of said material.

Storage is indeed the bugaboo of wind and solar.

Hydro has more potential, except for destroying ecosystems.

BKR
9/11/2017 10:29am,
It seems like they want to be able to breathe or something. The sad thing is we will fall behind in that technology due to fucktards who want to go back to coal.

Yep, batteries, man, batteries for storage. Read Joe's post, if you have not already.

China has a long way to go, I agree at least they are trying, but the US is so much cleaner and more energy efficient than China it's laughable.

1bad65
9/11/2017 10:32am,
That's bullshit and you know it. The oil companies have too much to lose to ever let wind or solar really take off.

So now you're blaming the oil companies for the failure of the 'green' companies that received hundreds of millions of taxpayer 'investments'???

This is getting amusing.

Please, continue on.....

1bad65
9/11/2017 10:35am,
.....ANY company including the ones that currently don't pay taxes such as oil companies.

Like Joe said, you sure do love to argue from a position of ignorance.

Where do you come up with such nonsense?

BKR
9/11/2017 10:41am,
It's almost as if you either are allergic to clean air or you're waiting for some cloud person to save the day. Notice how the ONLY country not looking at green energy is us?? It's funny that you guys keep arguing about something that every fucking scientist in the world says you're wrong about.

The US isn't "looking at green energy" ?

Just one example, we've (the USA) have had hydro plants for decades. My city has it's own fucking hydro dam on the Moyie River, that is tied into the Bonneville Power Administration (BPA).

Of course, **** the salmon and steelhead...nothing is without price.

https://pse.com/aboutpse/EnergySupply/Pages/Wind-Power.aspx

Wow,I'm finding some interesting stuff, thanks to BNET starting this thread. I was reading up on climate models last night, partial differential equations, yahoo! Nightmares of geochemistry and petrochemistry classes last night after that...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2014/01/18/wind-energy-of-no-use-in-the-pacific-northwest/#169461cd2f55
"Over the last several years in the Pacific Northwest, we have spent about $5 billion and impacted over 50,000 acres of pristine public land for the privilege of throwing away 9 billion kWhrs of carbon-free energy every year (NREL). Just so we can meet an arbitrary state mandate, claim we’re green, and make a few folks lots of money in tax credits, the cost of which gets passed onto the rate-payers and tax-payers.

So why is there such a drive to install wind capacity in an area that doesn’t need it?

Surprise! It’s all about the money.

There is more out there, of course, some it quite rosey, but I think the article I posted gives some perspective.

It's a complex system, and **** is getting done in the USA. But it's not so simple as screaming about wind, solar, wind, solar...and expecting a technological miracle.

BKR
9/11/2017 10:44am,
That is I think part of it. The real problem is what to do with waste that remains radioactive for centuries. The native Americans seem tired of it getting dumped on their lands. Maybe they can dump it in your backyard??

Breeder reactors were mentioned earlier. That tech has been around for decades, and is being improved (fast-neutron reactors), that significantly reduce half life and volume of nuclear waste, and in fact recycle spent nuclear fuel as well as depleted uranium.

I posted a link earlier in the thread, I'm sure there is more out there.

But no,nuclear is evil, and solar/wind will save the world...

BKR
9/11/2017 10:47am,
That's bullshit and you know it. The oil companies have too much to lose to ever let wind or solar really take off.

They don't need wind or solar to make tons of money, LOL !

Oil gets used for a lot more than energy production, natural gas used to get flared off because nobody wanted it (too busy burning coal). Now natural gas is king, but it still produces CO2 and water vapor when you burn it. Better than coal, though in terms of pollution, but coal has a LOT more energy in it per unit volume of material burned.

hungryjoe
9/11/2017 10:48am,
That is I think part of it. The real problem is what to do with waste that remains radioactive for centuries. The native Americans seem tired of it getting dumped on their lands. Maybe they can dump it in your backyard??

Did you even open the link BKR linked earlier? No, you didn't. If you did open it you saw there were no pictures and went elsewhere.

BKR
9/11/2017 10:50am,
The old "Not in my backyard" holdup.

http://www.chronline.com/wind-energy-project-proposed-for-thurston-lewis-counties/article_800c3dee-3ee9-11e6-bd76-0397bf7a811c.html

Nope, nobody in USA is going for the green (energy)...

Take that, China...

http://www.awea.org/MediaCenter/pressrelease.aspx?ItemNumber=8463
U.S. number one in the world in wind energy production
Wind supplied Iowa with over 31 percent of its electricity last year

February 29, 2016

Washington, D.C. — The United States continues to lead the world in wind energy production according to recently released data by the Global Wind Energy Council (GWEC) and by the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA).

Over 31 percent of Iowa’s in-state electricity generation came from wind last year – marking another major milestone. This is the first time wind has supplied a state with more than 30 percent of its annual electricity. Iowa, Kansas and South Dakota all generated more than 20 percent of their electricity from wind in 2015.

BKR
9/11/2017 10:55am,
I'm fine with taxpayers not being forced to hold up companies.....ANY company including the ones that currently don't pay taxes such as oil companies.

Oil companies pay taxes, don't be silly.

However, I'd like to see the tax system simplified, do away with most deductions but lower rates. Tax system is way too complex, and full of loopholes (thanks lobbyists, and it's not only energy companies that benefit).

Tis another topic, though, for sure.

BKR
9/11/2017 11:00am,
Did you even open the link BKR linked earlier? No, you didn't. If you did open it you saw there were no pictures and went elsewhere.

Hey, I'm taking BNET seriously here, stop it with the childish insults, you don't want to set him off...

Bneterasedmynam
9/11/2017 11:36am,
Hey, I'm taking BNET seriously here, stop it with the childish insults, you don't want to set him off...

Don't worry that's not going to happen, I just hope the mad max type future you guys are gunning for works out well for you.

hungryjoe
9/11/2017 11:38am,
Hey, I'm taking BNET seriously here, stop it with the childish insults, you don't want to set him off...

Yes. I do.

It's an area which I have put a fair amount of research and effort into at the professional level. While we have a large number of wind farms here in Oklahoma, there are issues to be addressed with smaller (around 20kV range) for people wanting to generate their own electricity. State law mandates that any excess be bought by the electrical company in that region. This makes self generation attractive for those in rural areas.

One issue is preventing damage from overly high winds. There's work being done (raises hand) on designs to help in the event of higher than rated wind velocity but the extremely high winds have destroyed a good number of units within the state. It's expensive to replace a unit that's been destroyed by high winds. You can't shinny up a pole. Crane rent alone is high plus crew. Most current generators are of the vertical type. Horizontal (my main area) types are much less efficient but more attractive and require less overall height.

Then there's the whole storage issue that's been discussed in this thread. At this time, for recycling purposes the old lead battery lends itself to the highest portion to be reused. At this time the demand is not great enough for the newer types with more capacity to warrant the growth predicted in the future to extract nickle and cobalt among others. It will get there but we're not there yet. Same for the solar cells.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_with_solar_and_turbine

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Wind_farm_map_2015.png

Wind and sun are not the panacea for energy at this time. They help, but the wind doesn't always blow nor the sun shine. + storage and transmission.

edit

In anticipation of Bnet's response-

edit - removal and replace

Bnet. The difference between stupidity and ignorance is one of intellect and education. You're not stupid. There has been a good amount of information provided with links to good sources. Politics is a non issue. Energy and the environment are the discussion. If you really care about the problems we're faced with you'll take the time to see it's a multi faceted issue.

ChenPengFi
9/11/2017 11:59am,
For what I know, car fuel use is spectacularly inefficient, so moving to electric cars would do the tricks.
Even if you get all electricity from burning oil or carbon, I assume that it would be easier to put some good filter on a few factories than on each single car.

Fuel is easier much to store locally than electricity.
You will also see losses at every step, so while economy of scale etc all play, you are still using more conversion steps that way.
Fuel -> motion via combustion is a more efficient process than fuel -> electricity via combustion -> motion via electricity. (Simplified)
Electricity degrades over distance as well.
Fuel evaporates a little, but not much.
Lots of things you're not considering it seems.

We haven't even gotten to the part where you convince the rest of the world your plan is a good one yet.

BKR
9/11/2017 12:28pm,
Don't worry that's not going to happen, I just hope the mad max type future you guys are gunning for works out well for you.

I'm gunning for no such thing.

BKR
9/11/2017 12:33pm,
Yes. I do.

It's an area which I have put a fair amount of research and effort into at the professional level. While we have a large number of wind farms here in Oklahoma, there are issues to be addressed with smaller (around 20kV range) for people wanting to generate their own electricity. State law mandates that any excess be bought by the electrical company in that region. This makes self generation attractive for those in rural areas.

One issue is preventing damage from overly high winds. There's work being done (raises hand) on designs to help in the event of higher than rated wind velocity but the extremely high winds have destroyed a good number of units within the state. It's expensive to replace a unit that's been destroyed by high winds. You can't shinny up a pole. Crane rent alone is high plus crew. Most current generators are of the vertical type. Horizontal (my main area) types are much less efficient but more attractive and require less overall height.

Then there's the whole storage issue that's been discussed in this thread. At this time, for recycling purposes the old lead battery lends itself to the highest portion to be reused. At this time the demand is not great enough for the newer types with more capacity to warrant the growth predicted in the future to extract nickle and cobalt among others. It will get there but we're not there yet. Same for the solar cells.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_with_solar_and_turbine

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Wind_farm_map_2015.png

Wind and sun are not the panacea for energy at this time. They help, but the wind doesn't always blow nor the sun shine. + storage and transmission.

edit

In anticipation of Bnet's response-

edit - removal and replace

Bnet. The difference between stupidity and ignorance is one of intellect and education. You're not stupid. There has been a good amount of information provided with links to good sources. Politics is a non issue. Energy and the environment are the discussion. If you really care about the problems we're faced with you'll take the time to see it's a multi faceted issue.

Nope, nobody cares about wind energy in the USA...
https://www.nrel.gov/gis/wind.html

GIS is geographical information system, BNET, so expect to see some maps (pictures).

Well, that same website has all sorts of stuff...must have been made in China !
https://www.nrel.gov/gis/maps.html