PDA

View Full Version : Kime! or am I just seeing things?



MisterMR
9/03/2017 8:01am,
So yesterday I was wasting my time on youtube on martial arts video and I ended on a Nippon Kempo tournament in Mexico.
Among the various matches there is this one:

https://youtu.be/2rKBuAo_4TE?t=1h9m16s

where the shorter contender in my opinion is much, much better than the taller one (even if in the end it is a draw).

But the question is, WHY is the shorter contender better than the tall one? It doesn't seem that he is technically better or physically stronger. The only explanation that I can give about my impression is that the shorter one has more "kime".

So, Is it just me who is seeing things or does this guy actually display something that can be called "kime"?

And if I'm not seeing things, how can we define this thing without ambiguous oriental words? Decision? Focus? He knows what he is doing more than the other guy?

baby_cart
9/04/2017 11:02am,
correct me if i'm wrong: the little guy you're referring to is jorge lopez in the red corner.

i see a good understanding of maai in him, a good awareness of his opponent's actions, and more importantly, a lack of hesitation.

he doesn't hesitate, his body language shows that he subconsciously knows he is in control. and he knows what to do. not sure if that's defined as kime.

MisterMR
9/04/2017 11:12am,
correct me if i'm wrong: the little guy you're referring to is jorge lopez in the red corner.

Yes


he doesn't hesitate, his body language shows that he subconsciously knows he is in control. and he knows what to do.

Yes, this is a much better explanation than mine!


not sure if that's defined as kime.

I'm not sure either. I never really understood what the word is supposed to mean, or if it really means something.
In fact with this video I tought: "Hey, maybe THIS is what kime is supposed to mean!".

EDIT
But there is also the fact that he doesn't do "stupid" attacks, he allways attacks "with intent".
I have some problem using this kind of sentences that reek of bullshido, but this is a case where I think I "see" it.

Permalost
9/04/2017 12:23pm,
I think it demonstrates konshubakuri, a different ill defined martial arts concept I just made up. Discuss.

I'm joking, obviously, but I think defining the term kime is step 1 of discussing if this vid has it. Kime is like chi- its a word that describes different things to different people.

Raycetpfl
9/04/2017 1:18pm,
So yesterday I was wasting my time on youtube on martial arts video and I ended on a Nippon Kempo tournament in Mexico.
Among the various matches there is this one:

https://youtu.be/2rKBuAo_4TE?t=1h9m16s

where the shorter contender in my opinion is much, much better than the taller one (even if in the end it is a draw).

But the question is, WHY is the shorter contender better than the tall one? It doesn't seem that he is technically better or physically stronger. The only explanation that I can give about my impression is that the shorter one has more "kime".

So, Is it just me who is seeing things or does this guy actually display something that can be called "kime"?

And if I'm not seeing things, how can we define this thing without ambiguous oriental words? Decision? Focus? He knows what he is doing more than the other guy?

The tall guy is slow and doesn't set anything up or move with fluidity between techniques.

He also is tall and doesn't use his length to stay on the outside. He should always have a jab or teep in the air to maintain his range.
Also his judo...... 吸う ........

MisterMR
9/04/2017 3:08pm,
I think it demonstrates konshubakuri

I'm intrigued, could you explain konshubakuri, possibly through a kata?
My understanding of "kime" is that it means "decision", like in judo's "kime no kata". Let's call it "pitbull mindset".


The tall guy is slow and doesn't set anything up or move with fluidity between techniques.

He also is tall and doesn't use his length to stay on the outside. He should always have a jab or teep in the air to maintain his range.

I do agree, I also think he is trying to be too smart by one half (what was that rotating punch, seriously? it isn't even an official Nippon Kempo technique), this is still a match between amateurs in the end.
But I don't think that the "kime" I see in the shorter guy is just a reflection of the errors of the taller guy.


Also his judo...... 吸う ........
Let's be honest, crushing on the judges' table during a throw is everyone's dream.

Permalost
9/04/2017 11:06pm,
I'm intrigued, could you explain konshubakuri, possibly through a kata?
My understanding of "kime" is that it means "decision", like in judo's "kime no kata". Let's call it "pitbull mindset".

Konshubakuri is the art of moving efficiently while looking good doing it.

MisterMR
9/05/2017 3:31am,
Konshubakuri is the art of moving efficiently while looking good doing it.

On the subject of konshubakuri, this is something that happened to me some years ago:
Shortly after I begun nippon kempo, I went to see an international NK tournament near to where I live. The head instructor of our dojo came with us (he is not the one who currently teaches NK but he is very experienced, in fact he is the one who first took NK to Italy in the early 80s).
Before the start of the tournament varius athethes began their heating up by punching each other on the protections.
The head instructor pointed to me a girl from the USA team who was doing some pretty simple front kicks (mae geri in karate, ushiro age geri in NK) with some teammate and said:
"Ah, she knows what she is doing, she will totally beat all the others".
And lo and behold, she won the female tournament (or perhaps she got close second, I'm not sure now), and she displayed that sort of, huh, whathever, that I see in the video I linked.
I still don't understand how the head instructor could understand this just from a pair of front kicks on a still partner.

From this, I reckon that "konshubakuri" is a real thing.

Permalost
9/05/2017 1:20pm,
On the subject of konshubakuri, this is something that happened to me some years ago:
Shortly after I begun nippon kempo, I went to see an international NK tournament near to where I live. The head instructor of our dojo came with us (he is not the one who currently teaches NK but he is very experienced, in fact he is the one who first took NK to Italy in the early 80s).
Before the start of the tournament varius athethes began their heating up by punching each other on the protections.
The head instructor pointed to me a girl from the USA team who was doing some pretty simple front kicks (mae geri in karate, ushiro age geri in NK) with some teammate and said:
"Ah, she knows what she is doing, she will totally beat all the others".
And lo and behold, she won the female tournament (or perhaps she got close second, I'm not sure now), and she displayed that sort of, huh, whathever, that I see in the video I linked.
I still don't understand how the head instructor could understand this just from a pair of front kicks on a still partner.

From this, I reckon that "konshubakuri" is a real thing.

I've never done nihon kempo, but I've done lots of bogu kumite with emphasis on hard body strikes, and its easy to see the difference between a hip-driven front kick that will move the opponent, and a knee-driven front kick that will not disrupt the opponent. And you can see when such a kick is used to step into more attacks, or when its used to step back.

BKR
9/05/2017 6:36pm,
I'm intrigued, could you explain konshubakuri, possibly through a kata?
My understanding of "kime" is that it means "decision", like in judo's "kime no kata". Let's call it "pitbull mindset".



I do agree, I also think he is trying to be too smart by one half (what was that rotating punch, seriously? it isn't even an official Nippon Kempo technique), this is still a match between amateurs in the end.
But I don't think that the "kime" I see in the shorter guy is just a reflection of the errors of the taller guy.


Let's be honest, crushing on the judges' table during a throw is everyone's dream.

I've seen that done more than once in a judo match, also seen guys thrown into those big scoreboards they used use back in the 80s. The other trick is to run your opponent into the referee. Back when we had 3 refs on the mat, one of the guys in the chair was a really juicy target...

Other than that, stop worrying about "kime". Short dude was better than tall dude, and it showed.

BKR
9/05/2017 6:40pm,
On the subject of konshubakuri, this is something that happened to me some years ago:
Shortly after I begun nippon kempo, I went to see an international NK tournament near to where I live. The head instructor of our dojo came with us (he is not the one who currently teaches NK but he is very experienced, in fact he is the one who first took NK to Italy in the early 80s).
Before the start of the tournament varius athethes began their heating up by punching each other on the protections.
The head instructor pointed to me a girl from the USA team who was doing some pretty simple front kicks (mae geri in karate, ushiro age geri in NK) with some teammate and said:
"Ah, she knows what she is doing, she will totally beat all the others".
And lo and behold, she won the female tournament (or perhaps she got close second, I'm not sure now), and she displayed that sort of, huh, whathever, that I see in the video I linked.
I still don't understand how the head instructor could understand this just from a pair of front kicks on a still partner.

From this, I reckon that "konshubakuri" is a real thing.

You don't understand (insert some exotic-sounding term here( padawan, kohai, grasshopper, mudansha, etc.) because you have not done enough wax-on -wax-off training.

MisterMR
9/05/2017 6:54pm,
I've never done nihon kempo, but I've done lots of bogu kumite with emphasis on hard body strikes, and its easy to see the difference between a hip-driven front kick that will move the opponent, and a knee-driven front kick that will not disrupt the opponent. And you can see when such a kick is used to step into more attacks, or when its used to step back.

Well maybe as this happened years ago I didn't really understand these important but unobvious to a noob details, but she really was just warming up and throwimg basic front kicks.

Going back to the main point of the thread, in my opinion there are some aspects of technique that are purely mechanical, and some smaller but noticeable aspects that are due to a "mindset", although these differences in the end show as mechanical differences.
For example in martial arts thay use point sparring sometimes players chase the point with attacks, whereas in more full contact sparring usually (but not always) try tp deal damage to the opponent, but while this shows up in slightly different movements, this largely depends on the mindset of the players imho.